Minimal wireless-bootable system/remote terminal??????

tragus · Post by **tragus** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:10 am

First time I've posted in a loooooong time. Clearly, I'm not up on the latest technologies.

I have an odd situation: In my lab, I have two rooms in which I'd like to have computer access (primarily for web-only and/or shared database). However, I need these stations to be a) low-cost (spending your U.S. tax dollars for research), b) fairly resistant to poor air, c) communicating via wireless, d) otherwise compact.

In particular, they will be in rooms that house 50-100 birds each, so feathers, dust, and all sorts of other crud get everywhere. I want to use the stations to record weight, health, maintenance, and so on into a central database of some type (yet to be determined). I'd also like to be able to call up histories, instructions, etc, so the communication has to be two-way. Due to the ancient building construction, running cables will be prohibitively costly.

I've found schmutz-resistant keyboards and monitors, but I don't know what to do with the back-end. A traditional computer seems almost overkill, and anything with air vents and fans is likely to get clogged in a couple of weeks. Quiet really isn't an issue, since the birds are.....noisy.

Recommendations?

Cerb · Post by **Cerb** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:40 am

How cheap? Also, if using Windows, I'd recommend getting a short USB extension, velcro dots, and a USB wireless adapter. If there's birds, and stuff for them, I'd imagine there's grounded (or otherwise coupled) metals about that could be annoyingly in the way. A 6' USB extension with the adapter at the end can be a life saver for wireless, should something come up. If not, it's not much more expensive than a PCI card would be.

At Cappuccino PC, I came up with:
Anjing NC: 800MHz VIA, 80GB HDD, 512MB RAM, XP Pro, no optical drive: $660. $25 or so could be saved by getting no HDD there, but instead at Newegg or somewhere, but that is pretty minor savings. very slow, still expensive. Figure it's got all the performance of a PII/III 400.

SlimPRO SP625F Fanless: Celeron-M 1.5, 512MB RAM, 40GB HDD, no optical, XP Pro: $745 (ouch). This is the perfect computer for you, IMO, but way overkill in performance. If it's not too expensive, stop right here. Also, you may be able to find used ones with PIII and VIA Eden CPUs.

Cash4000: 400MHz VIA, 512MB RAM, 40GB HDD, no optical, XP Pro: $550. This one's an unparalleled underperformer. I wouldn't want it as a desktop for anything but a thin client or router.

Others got into the SlimPRO's price range. If OS cost is not an issue, it was $155 for all three.

Building with a small budget in mind yields very, "meh," results for me, at newegg. The best option I've found is to get Intel's Celeron-M board, a nice little case (Athenatech A100, FI) using only the intake, filtering and taping it all, and finding a quiet PSU. While cost varies by option, it's still $400+ once all is said and done. If you can't get a deal on the OS, this isn't a half-bad way to go, given the cheaper OEM cost of Windows. The idea here is that you set it up so it's easy to clean your filter(s), so that you can let them clog.

Now then...can you buy used and mod? If so, that will be by far the best route, but you will have to figure out something for software, and buy a USB card.

I recommend intechraoutlet.com (formerly RetroBox). Find some PIII units with a decent amount of RAM, get several of the same model (like the Deskpro EN and Optiplex GX150s they've got for $50-70--$27 is the s&h per unit, end of story). Use them for tinkering, modding, filtering, and to have salvage parts in case of PSU/mobo failure. If software cost doesn't become a problem (the OS is a huge cost), I think that would be a great way to go. A bit of work, but you get a lot of control, good value, and you're recycling. Also consider checking out any local flea markets for used PC vendors. If performance isn't an issue, a RAM upgrade on an old PII or PIII box can be all you need to use XP quite nicely.

A DIY-like option, is to get a SFF PC (even a used one as above), and put it inside a wood or acrylic box with fan holes and filters (custom-make it from something from the Salvation Army, a flea market, etc.), which would add more fans to the equation, but remove the PC modding portion, and let you make a filter box that's even easier to deal with.

Aris · Post by **Aris** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:28 am

http://www.linutop.com/

280 Euro = 411.774 US Dollar (converted on 9JAN08)

Since you already have a monitor etc, and your not dealing with large data files like music or video, the 1gb included usb stick should be enough. If not you can always get an external HD and connect it via one of the 4x usb ports.

You'd also need to either hook it up to an access point on the 10/100 nic, or get a USB wireless dongle.

If you used just the included 1gb memory stick and got a usb dongle, it would probably be around $500. Add an external HD enclosure and HD for around $100 or less if you need more than 1gb of storage.

it doesnt use any fans or vents. its completely passive and very small. you could put it just about anywhere.

===============================

If that doesnt feel like its for you, check out www.logicsupply.com. They have a lot of completely passive, sealed mini itx systems.

Here are a couple:

http://www.logicsupply.com/products/systemgs_l01

http://www.logicsupply.com/products/systemgs_l02

Ones with an optical drive, and one is without.

scdr · Post by **scdr** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:37 pm

Something like the OLPC XO-1 (if you can still get it) might work
(if you can get by with the teeny screen, since it doesn't have an external monitor port.) No fans, no vents, designed for dusty/etc. environments.

Some of the UMPC type devices come to mind for resistance to fluff, but
probably too expensive.
There are a few fanless laptops out there - e.g. a second hand toughbook (if you can find one of the fanless modles for not too much.)
There are a few others - search the forums for fanless laptop should find a thread that listed several.

Going for less expensive (and less performance):
HP Omnibook 800CT (Edit: oops - had wrong model number, fixed.)
it is a pentium based ultra-portable, no fans/vents.
Or an old 486 laptop (if you don't need fancy web video/etc - just text and
pictures). Lots of them were ventless. Should be able to get dirt cheap. Get one with as much memory as you can find. Slap in a PCMCIA wireless card. Run something like Puppy linux or Win 9x.

There was an IBM device a few years ago - ran something like Windows CE, had a 9 or 10" screen and a PCMCIA slot or two. Can't think of the name of it right off the bat. (Something like a big-screen PDA).

Cerb · Post by **Cerb** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:16 pm

Shows you how conditioned we are to ads. No ABP or anything, but that reminded me...Zonbu! If you can roll your own OS, it's cheaper than the Linutop, and offers a superior feature set. It's beefy enough that Puppy wouldn't be necessary...though I might not jump for Ubuntu or Fedora.

This whole time, there have been those banners blinking above ever page of every thread...I didn't even see them until I saw the Linutop page and remembered it!

tragus · Post by **tragus** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:59 am

Thanks to the respondees so far.

The Zonbu box is really close to what I had imagined. I worry about proprietary (or at least not terribly open) software/OS, but I really like the concept and implementation. For my purposes, I also worry a little about company longevity, especially after dealing extensively with ARM Systems that suddenly shut their doors on multi-year service contracts.

I also like the Linutop and the Logicsupply teeny-itx , but they're also more than I need. The logic

Effectively, I just need a web-capable kiosk with little or no local storage or CPU needs. Scamming an old fanless laptop and setting a light Linux on top may be a very cost-effective method, since I can cover the keyboard with a plastic protector and still have easy software upgrade. I also really like "recycling" old computers that otherwise are unusable for most current applications.

If anyone has additional suggestions, I'm still open.

Vahan · Post by **Vahan** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:47 am

lol put the computer outside and wire it through a window or a hole in the wall

tragus · Post by **tragus** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:53 am

Vahan wrote:lol put the computer outside and wire it through a window or a hole in the wall

If only it were that easy. Since there are no existing windows or holes (except the floor drain) and due to the marvelous design of my part of the building, I would have to drill through two concrete-block walls, each ~12 inches wide, and run wires/cables across a 10-foot wide public hall into another part of the lab. But wait! I cannot do the drilling myself! I must make a written, detailed request through campus facilitiesmanagement, justifying the need, waiting for multiple levels of approval, allocate exhorbitant costs for multiple workers who must supervise, prepare and protect the birds before and during the workers' work, clean up after them, seal the holes after running the cables......

Ugh!

I'll stick with the self-contained wireless solution.

Can you tell that I've recently had some experience dealing with similar issues?

Cerb · Post by **Cerb** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:40 am

Zonbu is only mildly proprietary, and their OS is just a customized Ubuntu. It looks like their box is a ICOP eBox-4854. While there's not an amazing amount of info, the Damn Small Machine is based off a similar system, and runs DSL just fine from a USB key. Ubuntu 7.10 appears to work just fine on it, with updates. Slap Xubuntu on there, or Damn Small, or Puppy, and go to town, if you dislike their OS. Of course, that may or may not require additional hardware (like CF/IDE adapter, 2.5->3.5" IDE adapter, etc.).

But, hold on. Stop, stop stop. Used PII/III and modding just a hair is still the cheapest solution, BY FAR. But, if you want new...

http://dectop.nfshost.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
Lots of info, and links to buy. The info about installation is pretty specific, too.

That old AMD Africa PC thing is alive and cheap! With DSL and Ubuntu just working, you've got your choice of any OS. Upgrade the RAM, and you should still be well under $200 ($30 for 512MB DDR SODIMMs at Newegg). DSL apparently can be installed with any old USB stick. Also, you could take out the HDD, and with a 2.5"->3.5" adapter, install to that, then put it back into the decTOP.

If you're concerned about performance at all, go for the Zonbu (or a used box). That Geode has no FPU, and even outside of that, gets its lunch money beaten out of it daily by a VIA CPU of similar speed, much less one of triple the clock speed.

frostedflakes · Post by **frostedflakes** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:32 pm

If the Zonbu looks good to you, check this page out, they sell similar systems for about the same price. Most of them also have a wireless option, but it's kind of expensive. If you wanted to save a little cash you could just pick up USB WiFi adapters for them. Also, the systems don't come with a hard drive so you'd have to get a CF or 2.5" drive, whatever you plan on using.

scdr · Post by **scdr** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:16 pm

Just a couple more thoughts:

I assume you have tested wireless connectivity to the bird rooms?
(I seem to recall that masonry is harder for WiFi to get through - though that may have been mostly wet masonry (as in outside walls).)

I mentioned the laptops because I thought might need something totally sealed (as compared to some of the fanless brick PCs, which as I understand it still have vents.)
Another approach would be to do a positive pressure design (one input with fan drawing in and a realy good air filter on the input). Would mean periodic maintenance to clean the filter.
Bluefront has posted projects with several styles of air filters in the fora here (he uses filters from car ventilation systems.) You should be able to fit something like that to most anything (e.g. an old P3). Since noise isn't particularly an issue, should be easy to be sure have enough fan power to keep things cool.

Hmm - how about just using a HEPA vacuum for a cooling fan

Or build your PC into the middle of an air cleaner. I am thinking of the kind of air cleaner that has a filter element that is shaped like a hollow cylinder. Mount a small motherboard (or a brick PC) inside the central area of the filter. Aids your breathing as well as keeping your PC cool.
(This started out as a joke idea, but I have seen all sorts of things used as cases - so why not. Having seen the amount of dust that collects inside people's PCs I have thought that they look like air cleaners.
Next problem, for the purposes of SPCR - how to make it quiet.)