Is this a good gaming system?

astrotzky · Post by **astrotzky** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:03 pm

Hello,

I plan to buy a new computer soon and I thought it's wise to ask more people about my choices.
Here is what I have in mind:

Motherboard : ASUS Maximus II Formula (200 EUR)
CPU : INTEL E8600 - Core 2 Duo, 3.3GHz (230 EUR)
Video card : ASUS EAH4870X2 Radeon HD 4870 X2 (460 EUR)
RAM : Corsair TWIN2X4096-6400C4DHX, 2x2GB, DRR2-800 (100 EUR)
HDD : 2 x Western Digital VelociRaptor WD3000GLFS (480 EUR)
PSU : Zalman ZM850-HP - 850W (160 EUR)
Case : Thermaltake Kandalf LCS (240 EUR)
DVD writer : Samsung SH-S203P (40 EUR)
Keyboard : Logitech G15 2005 or G11 (80 EUR); hope I will still find G15 2005 (had that cool wheel)
Mouse : Logitech MX 518 (45 EUR)
Display : Samsung SyncMaster 2493HM, 24'', 1920x1200 (360 EUR)

In total it's about 2500 EUR and this is kind of my budget (can go a few hundreds higher but I don't really want to).

And here are my reasons:

Motherboard
- it's a P45 chipset based mobo because I don't trust NVIDIA on chipsets and it's not a X48 because I don't plan to use CrossFire (P5 has 2 PCIe ports, but each is 8x unlike 2 x 16x on X48)
- has hardware RAID (Speeding HDD)
- performs fine in reviews
- I trust ASUS as a brand

CPU
- fastest Core 2 Duo
- I plan to overclock it and would like not to increase the voltage; from the reviews I read this processor is the most stable with this kind of overclocking (probably brought by the new E0 stepping)

Video card
- needed a bad video card because I want to play all the games maxed out at 1920x1200
- the only thing better than this (but only slightly and not in all games) is 2 GTX 280, and that's at least 300 EUROs more. It's a no-brainer who provides better value here

RAM
- 2 x 2GB seems the best/enough for now (will use Vista or XP 64 bit editions)
- I trust the brand
- it's on ASUS' Qualified Vendor List which means it has been tested with the motherboard so I won't have problems

HDD
- 2 pieces of the fastest hard-drive available
- will use RAID 0
- solid state hard drives are just too expensive now (perhaps in a few years...)

PSU
- has enough juice (including amps)
- respected brand
- performs ok in reviews
- it's very quiet

Case
- looks cool
- it's quiet
- it has water cooling and I want that (I like it quiet), but I am not ready to make case modifications. I'm sure that if I were to cut the case myself it would look horrible

DVD RW
- from the reviews it seems ok
- has LightScribe which might come in handy

Mouse
- it's wired (had some bad experiences with gaming using wireless mice)
- can change DPI on-the-fly while you are in the game
- it's lighter than G5 (I don't like brick mice - heavy and big)

Display
- I like 24'' / 1920x1200
- it performs ok in the reviews
- has HDMI
- looks nice
- has TN panel which means it's cheap and it doesn't have noticeable input lag; I don't mind viewing angles: I will be gaming right in front of it

The video card will probably be the most noisy component and I will probably buy a water block as soon as I know there is no fabrication problem with it. I heard that mounting a water block voids the warranty so I want first to make sure I won't return it.

What do you think?
Will I have any incompatibilities?
Known issues with any component?
Are my choices correct?

P.S. Sorry for the huge post.

Thank you.

edit:
- added clarifications
- added links to the components' specifications
- updated prices

thejamppa · Post by **thejamppa** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:09 pm

Your choices are good... I am not sure though the case. Thermaltake is not popular in here. Some of their cases might be relatively good... but they're pretty much regular Antec / CoolerMaster budget level then.

If you want big tower and are willing to spend some money:

If you don't plan to run server mobo or Skulltrail system there isn't many eAtx mobo's out there... Coolermaster Stacker and Cosmos Series is something you might also check.

Oh, yes... What CPU cooler are planning to use? Xigmatek HDT-S1283? TRUE? New Noctua?

astrotzky · Post by **astrotzky** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:50 am

thejamppa wrote:I am not sure though the case

I know that Thermaltake water cooling are not that good but:
- it's quiet and I care a lot about this. I'm not sure how quiet an air solution would be
- I read that the solution in Kandalf is a tad better (very little) than high end air cooling and this is all I need (an overclocked quad would probably be another business, but I have a core 2 duo)
- I like how this case looks

thejamppa wrote:What CPU cooler are planning to use?

Was thinking of using the water block that comes with Kandalf...

thejamppa · Post by **thejamppa** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:59 am

These days water cooling is dying slowly off in quiet markets simply because:

- There is no such thing as silent pump.

- Modern Air Coolers are as effective as your general water cooling and quieter.

High end water cooling does kick air coolings ass but not as bad as old days. But problem is that in such thing you have pump which cannot be quiet, you have high airflow, high impedance fans on the radiator and Thermaltake fans are generally 1200 - 1600 rpm fixed fans and are not quet at all.

If you really want to go quiet you should ask opinions about watercooling forum in SPCR abotu thermaltakes watercooling.

Most silent rigs you see in SPCR are air cooling simply because modern air coolers are so effective and they're effective even under 1000 rpm fans. You can put 500 rpm fan on Thermalright HR-01 plus and it still cools like champion without noise...

astrotzky · Post by **astrotzky** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:16 am

Do you think I have a chance to air cool the 4870x2 and still have a quiet system? I ask because I had no ideea air could be as quiet as water...

nici · Post by **nici** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:51 am

As of this moment there are no aircoolers for the X2 cards. And i would not hold my breath waiting for one, so if you really want one of those cards then watercooling is pretty much your only option since you want it to be quiet. Two cards in Crossfire could be aircooled however.

I have no idea how good that thermaltake watercooling system is, but that case is big wnough to enclose the pump in foam. A good pump is not that hard to make inaudible with some work. My Laing DDC with acrylic top was decettly quiet, and it still moved a good amount of water even undervolted. ALso the Eheim 300 in the Reserator was very quiet, but the whole tower vibrated slightly so it made a flimsy desk vibrate and hum slightly. But that was not the pump making noise per se.

FartingBob · Post by **FartingBob** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:37 am

At 1920x1200 you dont really need the 4870x2. A single 4870 or GT280 would be better choices IMO, and both easier to cool quietly (4870 especially since you can stick a Accelero on it and run it passively with ok airflow).

nici · Post by **nici** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:41 am

You can't just stick an accelero on a HD 4870 and run it passively. Just relying on case airflow is not a good idea, i jsut had my case open for a while while pondering fan configurations and iit smelled like something burning, and my finger is still sore from touching the heatsink. This was in idle. But yes, it does just fine with some airflow, or the core does, glue on heatsinks didn't help much since even with a 120mm fan at full speed blowing on the card they went up to 130c. So i removed the memory / VRM heatsink bit from the stock cooler and put that under the Accelero. Not it works pretty well. As long as i have a fan blowing directly at the heatsink. Im running 1920x1080, but have yet to install any games so cant really comment on how well that works.l

FartingBob · Post by **FartingBob** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:47 am

nici wrote:i jsut had my case open for a while while pondering fan configurations and iit smelled like something burning, and my finger is still sore from touching the heatsink. This was in idle.

When you open your case you destory any airflow going over the heatsink, it wont be much better than just natural convection. Close the case, briefly disconnect your S1's fan and watch your temps, if you have an intake fan that is roughly in line with the PCI slots (and most cases do) you should see temps lower than the stock cooler manages.

nici · Post by **nici** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:25 am

With the intake fan pointed the Accelro, it idles at 59c. With the same fan directly on the heatsink, temps are in the low 40s. Still experimenting.

frankgehry · Post by **frankgehry** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:03 pm

Go here for advice on watercooling -
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/for ... y.php?f=70

There's a thread on 4870x2 watercooling.

astrotzky · Post by **astrotzky** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:13 am

FartingBob wrote:At 1920x1200 you dont really need the 4870x2.

I might, if I want all my games maxed out. Especially when increasing AA and AF.
Also, if it's a little overkill now, that means I will still play the games maxed out in half a year, right?

astrotzky · Post by **astrotzky** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:13 am

This is what I have decided:

1. Motherboard: I like the Maximus II Formula one, even if it's expensive.
2. CPU: will buy a dual-core. I will buy a quad when at least 50% of the games I play can take advantage of it. I will also get it cheaper.
Now, I know E8600 it not worth the money, but it's the only way to make sure I buy a E0 stepping (I buy online) so I will go with that.
3. Video card: 4870x2 it is. No question about it.
4. RAM: I keep it. Of the DDR2-1066 2x2GB kits on the ASUS Qualified Vendor List I can't find any of them to buy. I don't want to buy memory that's not on the QVL. I know it will probably work, but I also know that the memory on the QVL works for sure).
5. HDD: It seems 2xVelociraptor in RAID is not worth it. What do you recommend? Would a 64GB SSD system drive and a Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD6400AAKS, 640GB for data would be a good ideea? Or maybe two? In RAID

? At least the price of two of those is still a lot less that a single Velociraptor.
6. PSU: It seems Corsair is pretty popular. Do you have recommendations to make for a quiet model?
7. Case: I'm torn apart on this. I understand their water kits are the entry point to water cooling. All the reviews I read said it's ok (not great), it's on par with high-end air cooling. Is this true? Because, frankly I don't need more.
And one more thing. I CAN'T go with air cooling. Water is the only way to make the 4870x2 silent.

So that left me with 3 questions: HDD, PSU and case. Could you help me here, please?

frenchie · Post by **frenchie** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:10 am

Hi,
I have a nexus quiet PSU and it works quite well yet stay quiet. I'm happy with it.
http://www.nexustek.nl/nx8040_80plus_mo ... supply.htm

sjoukew · Post by **sjoukew** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:40 am

As you are from Holland, you know the Tweakers pricewatch ?
For those who don't: It is a part of a dutch website listing all prices from all shops, along with the user experiences from those shops.

astrotzky · Post by **astrotzky** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:07 am

I live in Holland, yes. I knew about the site, but thank you anyway. It was quite a relief when I found it (about a month ago) because before that I only knew about komplett.nl and they can be expensive.

thejamppa · Post by **thejamppa** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:11 am

Seems that water cooled Kandalf is your best bet, once you get HD 4870x2 waterblock.

Licaon · Post by **Licaon** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:25 pm

thejamppa wrote:Seems that water cooled Kandalf is your best bet, once you get HD 4870x2 waterblock.

2x HD4870 Crossfire - fans running at 100%

thejamppa · Post by **thejamppa** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:42 am

Licaon wrote:
thejamppa wrote:Seems that water cooled Kandalf is your best bet, once you get HD 4870x2 waterblock.
2x HD4870 Crossfire - fans running at 100%

Christ... those are worse than your average leaf blowers...

nici · Post by **nici** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:19 am

The 7900GTX/GTO which probably has the best stock cooler of any card to date, was also very noisy at 100%. But 20-30% was plenty to cool it so it was pretty damn quiet. The fans on the HD4870 will never reach 100% in normal use, except for very short bursts now and then under full load. Which is annoying. OR was before i changed the cooler. twice.

loimlo · Post by **loimlo** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:16 am

Is seems that you've choosed some quality components already, hence I'll just add a few things to you.

First, Logitech MX518 is a great mouse with good hardware design and mediocre Setpoint driver from my 2 years consecutive experience.

Setpoint keeps on forgetting customized buttons setting randomly and reverting to default setting, therefore I stick to defaults right now. Other that this monor bug, I like MX518 very much cause it gives me comfortable hand feeling and highly responsive laser engine. Btw, find a good mouse pad -- otherwise you would waste a quality mouse.

Second, as for HDD, I would get a Hitachi P7K500 or WD GreenPower rather than WD6400AAKS for data due to no need for performance under your situation. Just my two cents, I hope I could help you.

twoscoreandfour · Post by **twoscoreandfour** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:42 pm

Just some things to think about:

RE RAID, I do not believe this is "hardware RAID." This is just software RAID enabled by the chipset. This is no different to the other RAID solutions offered on previous chipsets. It's also debatable whether RAID is of any use to you, so personally I wouldn't factor in the chipset RAID when making a decision.

RE fans/water: Remember, just because this is a water cooling system, that doesn't mean that there won't be any fans. You need cooling on the radiator, and depending on the radiator this may mean high RPM or low RPM fans. The Kandalf marketing shows a 3 fan rad. In a best case scenario, we would assume that these are really quality silent fans (Yate Loon's, Sycthes etc.). You are still going to have the noise of 3 fans. Plus, you will have the noise of the pump (once again assuming that the pump is fairly silent). If you changed your GFX card to a 4870, you could still have a really silent system with only three fans. So in a best case scenario, watercooling doesn't give you anything. Of course, if the pump is annoying loud, or if the rad requires higher-power fans, the watercooling setup is going to be much louder than any quiet air-cooling setup.

Watercooling can be used for silent pc's, however 1) it's not really that beneficial since air cooling products are quite good and most pc parts are run a lot cooler and 2) You research and pick and choose the best individual parts for the need. Going with a prepackaged product can yield unpredictable and undesirable results

hybrid2d4x4 · Post by **hybrid2d4x4** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:36 pm

As an owner of a Thermaltake chassis myself, I can guarantee that the dB numbers that they claim are a complete fabrication unless there's a disclaimer I missed that says "measured at a distance of 15m". Multiply their numbers by one-and-a-half to 2x to get a realistic measure to compare against the fan ratings on here. On the other hand, if you use a fan controller or run the fans at 5 or 7V, it will run quiet.

I think your instincts were spot on despite some of the feedback you got. You WILL need a 4870X2 to run games maxxed out @ 1900x1200 and to be able to keep doing so for a much longer period in the future than by just getting a regular 4870. And watercooling WILL probably be the best way to keep it cool and quiet, and this case should be excellent for achieving those goals (with a fan controller or swapping wires around to undervolt the stock fans). An SSD (like the OCZ Core V2) plus a WD 6400AAKS should be excellent. I'm not a big believer in the raptors, value-wise.

EDIT: Just read the article on Anandtech and the random write bug affecting all the Jmicron-equipped MLC SSDs including the OCZ Core, and wanted to retract my recommendation.