Thanks for Helping Me with this Photoshop Build

[Bearmann]

I'm having a computer custom built for me for Photoshop and general web browsing, etc. I don't do any gaming. I want it to be reasonably quiet. I've got a lot of questions! This is what I am thinking of:

1. Antec Solo Case (would the SonataIII or Sonata Plus be better with the included power supply?)

2. Corsair TX650 PSU (should I spend a few dollars more for the 520HX?)

3. Intel i7 Processor (he suggested a mild overclock to 3.2 GHz, but I can't decide. Would the speed increase be significant in actual use? How much extra heat would there be-enough to make my fans substantially noisier?

4. WD Black 640 GB HD for the system drive-tray mounted. (I had considered the 74 or 150 GB Velociraptor, but I'd rather not take the chance since a good portion of people still find them somewhat noisy)

5. Two Samsung 1 TB F1 Spinpoint HD's for my images-tray mounted. (not raid) Does it matter which one of the 4 HD bays I leave empty?

6. ASUS P6T Deluxe V2 MB (he recommended, and it seems very good to me, though I've always heard such good things about the Gigabyte boards)

7. 12 Gb of Super Talent DDR3-1333 CL8 ram

8. ASUS Xonar D2X sound card (I'm splurging!)

9. EVGA nVidia 9600GT or 9800GT 512 MB graphic card (he suggested the 9800 GTX+ 512MB, but I think that may be overkill for Photoshop. I do want it to last through Photoshop CS7 though Thats about 5 years, I think. I like that the 9600GT is 95 watts and the 9800GT is 105 watts as compared to the 145 watts of the GTX+. The 9600GT and 9800GT look the same to me, but is the 9600 passively cooled and the 9800GT has an attached fan? Would you suggest I add a heatsink to the 9600, with or without an attached fan? Remember, I won't be gaming so I don't think it will be working that hard.

10. He suggested the Samsung SH-S223Q LightScribe 22X Dual Layer DVD+/-RW SATA Drive

11. Vista Home Premium 64-bit

12. Originally I was going to go with the Antec P182 case, and he suggested 3 Scythe S-FLEX SFF21E fans and a Noctua NH-U12P SE1366 fan. With the different case and smaller video card, what and how many fans would you recommend? I assume that he can undervolt them if needed, but if he can install some fans without rewiring anything, that would be preferred.

Thank you so much for your suggestions!!! I've been reading a lot, but there is a lot that I don't understand so I have have come for your expertise.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

I'd get the Solo (for sure) and the Nexus 430watt PSU, or a Fortron Source Green 350watt -- there is no way you need a bigger PSU than these.

Does Photoshop use multi-threading? If so, then the quad core will be pretty darn fast, with or without an OC. What HSF are you considering? I'd look long and hard at the new Scythe Mugen 2.

If you remove the metal casting "cooler" from the Velociraptor, then they are quiet, and the performance will be a good thing.

12GB of RAM, huh?! Wow -- why not just go for 16GB?

I think the quality of the video card output matters much more than the speed of the GPU -- is there a card that has color correction? Maybe a Matrox? You are working with still images, not swinging complex 3D models with oodle of textures, right? Go for image quality, and skip the power hungry 3D cards.

I think you'll be fine with a Slipstream 1200 or 800 on the rear of the Solo, and a quiet 92 mm in front on the warmest drive(s) -- maybe a Nexus or the GlobalWin NCB?

[Bearmann]

Neil,

Yes I knew the PSU he recommended was overkill. That's why I was thinking of the Corsair 520HX. I assume the stock PSU in the Sonata Plus is not as quiet? It's the same case as the Solo, right?

Photoshop CS4 does use multithreading a little bit now, and is expected to do so more in the future. I am ignorant on this, but I read that a Nvidia card with CUDA ability can take advantage of the new features in Photoshop CS4. Adobe recommends for CS4: Some GPU-accelerated features require graphics support for Shader Model 3.0 and OpenGL 2.0
Adobe seems to be collaborating with nVidia at the moment and nVidia seems to be the preferred brand to use with Photoshop currently.

Please don't mention the Velociraptor after I thought I made up my mind!!!

Oh, once you start stitching images together they can get pretty large. I'm typically working with an image over 500MB for a single image. Once you start doing things to them, it sucks up that ram. I'm sure I won't need that much to start, but I've got 6 slots to fill in groups of 3 and the extra 6 GB is only $120. Thought I might as well fill it up now since prices have come down so much.

I thought that Noctua NH-U12P SE1366 was for the heat sink? But I'll advise him to use the Scythe Mugen 2 if you think it will be a better choice.

Neil, I'm a bit embarrassed having already been snickered at over at DPReview. I'm currently using a Dell 8200 which I see I ordered on 10-04-01 I don't tend to tinker with my computer much other than adding additional ram. And once I get it, I tend to keep it for a while. I've really planned to replace it for a couple of years now. I couldn't decide if I wanted a Mac, but when the new Mac Pros just came out, I wasn't thrilled. So I'm going to have my first custom build computer with a great sound card and a heck of a lot of ram

Thank you so much for your help!

[JamieG]

Use the suspension HDD mounts in the Solo rather than the tray mounts.

I second Neil's recommendations of fans and the Nexus PSU.

The Thermalright Ultra 1366 kit with a Nexus 120mm is another CPU heatsink option.

You could get a passive 9600GT as well, I'm sure that would be fine for your needs. If you include a passive card like this, maybe two undervolted Nexus 92mm fans at the front of the case would be worthwhile.

[Bearmann]

Neil,
I don't see a review on the Scythe Mugen 2. How do you know it's so good? Not that I doubt you in the least I do like the better price.

Jamie- Thanks for your input! The computer will be shipped to me. I'm also worried about the suspension mounts stretching-I may not look in there for another 8 years you know

So if I get the 9800GT, it comes with it's own fan and it will be adequate? It sounds like it will be less expensive to use the 9800GT since I won't need additional case fans like I would for the 9600GT? And it's a better card, too.

I just did a quick price search on the Nexus 430 PSU. It appears to be nearly the same price as the Corsair TX650, so I'll probably stick with one of the Corsair units. I'm afraid to go lower than 430 watts in case I add to the computer later.

I hope someone will comment on whether they think it's a good idea to overclock the CPU to 3.2 GHz.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi Barry,

The Sonata case is very different from the Solo -- the former's hard drive rack is turned 90 degrees and the front fan is located inside the case. The Solo is a much better design, and it can help the system be much quieter, and the hard drives in a Solo will be cooler, all else being equal.

The Mungen 2 is new and not reviewed yet, but it has all the hallmarks of an excellent heatsink. The only i7 cooler that SPCR has reviewed (I think?) is the Prolima Megahalems: http://www.silentpcreview.com/prolima-megahelams, and it is fine.

I would get a passively cooled video card -- I don't think that Photoshop is very demanding of the video card at all. This will keep the power usage down, the noise level down, and the temperatures down -- all good!

I'll bet this machine won't peak above 200 watts, let alone 300watts?

You don't need to decide on the overclock until later. The challenge with an overclock is with all that RAM, you will either have to spend a bloody fortune on the fastest/highest quality RAM -- or you will have to underclock the RAM in order to overclock the CPU, or you won't be able to overclock the CPU at all. I'd keep the RAM synchronous, and not worry about an overclock.

With four cores and lots of L2 and TONS of RAM (and if Photoshop is multithreaded! IS IT?) then this machine will be speeding through the pixels!

Edit: are you sure that the motherboard you have chosen will support 12GB of RAM? And at what speed?

What don't you like about the Mac Pro? Dual quad cores and up to 32GB of RAM sound like exactly what you need!

[Bearmann]

So the Solo it is!

The Mugen 2 really looks to be at a great price point. I really don't want to pay extra to replace the stock fan with a new heatsink/fan combo and them have to replace the combo fan again-it seems so wasteful.

So if I get the nVidia 9600GT(corrected), I won't need any additional heatsink for it? I might just need to beef up the case fans a bit?

He is going to overclock it for me. I don't know how to do it myself. He selected that motherboard, the ram, and the amount of overclock (I told him a modest amount), and I'm sure he knows what he is doing. The MB does support 12GB of ram, 24GB maximum if I remember correctly. Vista Premium-64 allows for 16GB, I believe.

The Mac Pro's are nice, but I think much more expensive, noisier, and I would have to get the 2 chip model to allow for adequate ram expansion. I'd also need to change out much of my software. They really need a desktop in between the iMac and the Pro IMO.

[iowahokies]

Your post is very timely. I have been researching here and at dpreview for my next build. My computer is old, but not as old as yours. I am running a P4-3.2 (whatever was out prior to the Prescott - I cannot recall the name).

My needs are similar to yours except I will also be doing digital video and encoding work.

If you are interested in exploring the Mac possibilities, then I suggest you get a Gigabyte motherboard (based on what I've read in hackintosh forums). From the research I've done, it appears all the i7 Gigabyte motherboards are good ones (not specifically looking at hackintosh but generally speaking they are all good motherboards) - pick the model based on what bells and whistles you are looking for.

Here are a few sites you can explore on the possibilities of putting MacOS on your PC: (I don't have three posts yet, so I was not able to linkify the links below)
hackint0sh dot org
Check out the forums at insanelymac dot com
Howto article - lifehacker dot com/348653/install-os-x-on-your-hackintosh-pc-no-hacking-requireds
Here is a hardware solution, but they don't have any i7 hardware certified yet. However, there are people using EFI with i7. efi-x dot com/index.php?language=english

The Abit board you are looking at is an excellent one. It may very well work with the Mac stuff. I've just seen more info about the Mac stuff running on Gigabytes.

Good luck! I look forward to seeing other messages in this thread.[/url]

[Bearmann]

Neil and Jamie-I think that I misspoke earlier about nVidia being the prefered brand. Here are the cards that Adobe has tested and recommends with Photoshop CS4 as of October 17, 2008:

http://kb.adobe.com/selfservice/viewCon ... d=kb405711

If I do end up using the nVidia 9600GT, I'm still not clear if you recommended that I use an extra heatsink and fan with it. I assume that this passively cooled card comes with some type of heatsink already?

iowahokies-I can't go backwards in my decision making I'm resolved to go the PC route at this point in time, ie no hackintosh, either.

[QuietOC]

3. Intel i7 Processor (he suggested a mild overclock to 3.2 GHz, but I can't decide. Would the speed increase be significant in actual use? How much extra heat would there be-enough to make my fans substantially noisier?

For Photoshop you're best served by the fastest clockspeed + IPC core you can find. Right now that is probably an Intel Wolfdale (i.e., 45nm "Core 2 Duo") overclocked to >>4GHz. 12GB of memory is useful for Photoshop, and a good reason to go Core i7. This is the main failing of my Apple iMac that it is maxed at 4GB of memory. The cheap Hackintosh I built with 8GB was so much better.

Anandtech Photoshop CS4 test (mislabeled CS3):


Forget about the poor Geforce 9600GT (and the especially poor 8600GT) unless you want to play games. Old Intel built-in video is fine for Photoshop--get something low power like the GMA 3100 in the G31/G33. Spend the money on something useful like faster drives instead.

I've just seen more info about the Mac stuff running on Gigabytes.

OSX will run on anything you can get OSX drivers for. A cheap E5200 + cheap TuL G31 motherboard runs OSX as well as a 24" iMac.

But forget about OSX for Photoshop unless you want OSX for something else. The OSX version is not going to have 64-bit support, and Photoshop is one of the few applications that could really use 64-bit.

[Bearmann]

QuietOC-

Thanks for your help. I'm with you all the way regarding the multithreading and the eye candy, but I suspect the multithreading will become more important with CS5 and onward. Like you say, the i7 chip with CS4, Vista-64 will allow for much more ram, and that is the main benefit. From what I read, the Shader Model 3.0 and OpenGL 2.0 actually slow down Photoshop when they are enabled. I just didn't want to rule out the chance that they may become useful in the future. Do you think the built in video of the ASUS board that I have selected is adequate for now?
I can add a video card later if I need OpenGL, etc. assuming that it develops into something useful.

[QuietOC]

Do you think the built in video of the ASUS board that I have selected is adequate for now?

Yeah, any 2D video output is fine for Photoshop. If you're motherboard doesn't have built-in video just get a cheap and/or low wattage card. I'd get a Radeon HD 2400/4350/4550/4650. An nVidia 9500GT wouldn't be horrible either.

[Bearmann]

Well, I'm told that that particular ASUS MB does not have onboard video, so I'll get the 9600GT or one of those that you suggested. If I go with the 9600GT, will I need an additional fan or heatsink for it?

[QuietOC]

Well, I'm told that that particular ASUS MB does not have onboard video, so I'll get the 9600GT or one of those that you suggested. If I go with the 9600GT, will I need an additional fan or heatsink for it?

Why the 9600GT?

I had a $10 Geforce 7300GT which is more than plenty. You won't get anything useful for more money.

[Bearmann]

Oh, I don't know really. The passive cooling sounded good. My builder suggested the nVidia 9800 GTX+ so I thought I would stay in the nVidia family-not a sound reason, I know. It may have some future obsolescence protection if that OpenGL ever becomes worthwhile. A couple of guys at the DPR PC forum seemed to think it was a good choice (see my post by Bearmann) as did Jamie above. Oh, and Puget computer recomends it here:

http://forums.pugetsystems.com/showthread.php?t=4096

I'm really getting a lot of different advice which makes it difficult to decide. I do appreciate your assistance!

[JamieG]

The 9600GT was one passive (and therefore quiet) graphics card I could think of off the top of my head only. Nothing more than that.

As a qualifier, I have no experience with photoshop or the sort of colour fidelity or image quality you may require.

The one thing I would suggest is to make sure you get a digital output if your monitor will support it. Some cheap mobo's with integrated graphics may only have a VGA (analog?) video output. Other than that, I suppose there's no reason why you couldn't get a mobo with integrated graphics instead.

There are also cheaper passive graphics cards out there. I have an Asus-branded ATI 3450 in my HTPC. SPCR just reviewed the Asus EN9400GT SILENT/DI/512MD2 (~US$60) which has a passive cooler as well, which might be sufficient for your needs.

In summary, don't be tied to the 9600GT just because I or anyone else suggested it. Pick a passive card that is within your budget and I'm sure it will be fine. (I know that's not that helpful...)

[Bearmann]

Here's another view on passively cooled cards from a well informed source at another forum:

...I would recommend an actively cooled card. The passive cooling won't buy you much if anything in the noise department because the card will shed it's heat via heat sinks that make the internal environment in the case hotter which then just makes the system fan run harder and louder and typically the next two slots beside them are unusable because any cards in those slots end up getting too hot and can actually fail or do a thermal shut down.

The opinions on what makes a good, quiet, Photoshop centric graphic card certainly runs the gamut!!!

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

The person who wrote that (above) is confusing temperature with heat. A video card puts out the same amount of heat into the inside of the case, no matter how it is cooled. An actively cooled card may be able to do this with a smaller heatsink and/or it may be able to maintain a lower temperature -- but the same amount of heat will still be shed into the air.

If you want a quiet(er) machine, you should get a passively cooled card, and Photoshop is NOT very demanding of the video card, so you should go for image quality and color accuracy. Neither of these requires a high power card, and so it will not shed very much heat into the case.

I'm confused by the earlier comment about a Mac being "maxed" out with 4GB of RAM? Oh, I see -- it was referring to the iMac. OSX is a 64bit system, and the Mac Pro can support up to 32GB of RAM for up to a pair of quad core Intel CPU's. That's a lot of threads and a heck of a lot of RAM!

[Bearmann]

Neil-

That is an excellent point! What do you think about his contention that the two slots next to the video card are unusable due to the hot video card? Thanks!

[ACook]

that all depends on what you want to put next to that card, and how many slots there are on the board.

Since you're not gaming, you don't need another videocard. a seperate audiocard these days is unnecesary as well for most uses of a pc, so you don't need that either. perhaps you'd like a DVB or other capture card, but you said you weren't interested in video.

Sometimes the heatsinks cover the next slot, but those are often the short pci-e slots that ppl don't use anyway. The heat rises, so I really don't agree with any of his points.

[Bearmann]

I will be using a separate audio card.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

As has been said several times -- if you don't need a power-hungry 3D card, then you won't have troubles cooling the card, even if you have to fill all the PCI slots. But, do you have to fill all the PCI slots? If not, then you have the luxury of placing the sound card to your best advantage.

[QuietOC]

As a qualifier, I have no experience with photoshop or the sort of colour fidelity or image quality you may require.

The one thing I would suggest is to make sure you get a digital output if your monitor will support it. Some cheap mobo's with integrated graphics may only have a VGA (analog?) video output. Other than that, I suppose there's no reason why you couldn't get a mobo with integrated graphics instead.

Photoshop is best with a large calibrated CRT using ye olde VGA output. I make do with the H-IPS LCD in my iMac, but I miss the old Trinitron CRTs. Now you can try to do Photoshop work on some cheap low gamut, 6-bit TN LCD, but you won't be able to see everything.