Colleague wants high perf and silence - hows this spec look?

dsl101 · Post by **dsl101** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:34 am

A colleague of mine has asked me to spec up a high performance workstation that won't deafen everyone (2 of these in a smallish office). It needed to be dual-head capable, but won't be used for anything much more demanding that youtube videos! Hence no GFX card (to save power and heat). Could always add one later if needed. Also, they connect to a main server, so doesn't need much storage locally. Any advice or thoughts gratefully received:

Antec Solo Quiet Mini Tower case
OCZ 400W ModXStream Pro PSU
Asus M4A78T-E MB
AMD Athlon II X2 250 3.0GHz CPU
Scythe Ninja II heatsink
Crucial 2x2GB DDR3 1333MHz/PC3-10600 RAM
Corsair Extreme Series X32 32GB 2.5" Solid State Hard Drive

I don't think I've forgotten anything, and I've tried my best to make sure everything is compatible (just hoping the Scythe will fit both the MB and the case

).

Total so far is Â£470 (from ebuyer). Probably could get a few bits cheaper here and there, but to be honest, its easier to get it all from one place I think...

Cheers,

Dave.

PS I carefully looked up URLs for all the above components, to save anyone kind enough to look at this some time, but the grrrring thing won't let me post links, cos I'm new

oxymoron09 · Post by **oxymoron09** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:53 am

Spec looks fine. I did get two Samsung SSD from novatech and RAID 0'd them. Awesome! Might be an idea, you can get one for Â£90 last time I checked!

swivelguy2 · Post by **swivelguy2** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 2:07 pm

What's the logic behind a $140 DDR3 mobo with an $80 CPU in it? In my opinion, the rule of thumb is to spend less on the mobo than on the CPU. You can get a variety of 780G motherboards from reputable manufacturers for $75 or less, including an Asus:

Asus M3A78-EM - $75

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 2:55 pm

Hi,

I would use a PSU from the SPCR recommended list, rather than the OCZ (the Nexus Value 430 would be my choice!), and I would use the Scythe Mugen 2 rather than the Ninja 2 -- it comes with the bolt through mount, works a bit better AND it is less expensive.

dsl101 · Post by **dsl101** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:29 am

Thanks for the comments everyone!

@oxymoron09 - I can only get SSDs from Intel, Kingston, Corsair and OCZ (from the supplier I'm using), so will probably go with these. Nice idea re RAID though - hadn't thought of that.

@swivelguy2 - my experience is that for this kind of workstation (general office-type apps), the CPU is rarely the bottleneck - bus speed, memory and disk are the limiting factors. I also wanted integrated dual-head graphics, hence my choice for MB. Lastly, its also much easier to upgrade the CPU I reckon if needed, than change the MB later. For gaming / video, etc., I would totally agree with your rule of thumb, but for less demanding apps, I've found the system as a whole has much more impact.

@NeilBlanchard - again, I'm limited slightly by manufacturer from the supplier I was going to use (long-standing relationship, single point of ordering, etc.). They don't stock Nexus sadly, but the OCZ is modular, which should help with cooling. My reason for the Ninja was so I could use it fanless, but I guess the fan on the Mugen is probably pretty quiet? I'm also assuming you can't use the Mugen without a fan - but I guess that depends on load and other case cooling factors. I might give it a try

Thanks again,

Dave.

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:48 am

Hello Dave,

The thing that makes a PSU quiet or not is the fan and the fan controller. What PSU's do you have available?

The Mugen 2 will work fine passively, and the fan that comes with it is virtually the same as the Ninja. The bolt through bracket on the Mugen 2 is MUCH better than the pushpins on the Ninja. Check the SPCR review of the Mugen 2.

SebRad · Post by **SebRad** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:02 am

Handily ebuyer do have the Mugen 2 (at the moment)
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/158603 (Â£35)

Asus M4A785TD-V Evo (as per SPCR review) is Â£25 less than your choosen one, worth look? (Dual head capable, I think VGA with either DVI or HDMI, not DVI & HDMI)
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/169532

Could add that Â£25 to CPU and go from Athlon II 250 to Penom II X3 710
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/159069

As far as can tell from what I've read after the Intel SSDs the ones to have are the Indillix based ones, which the Corsair is one of so good choice, alternate is Vertex 30GB
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/160730

Alternate PSUs around Â£40 of the OCX
Corsair CX400w - not sure if this quieter or not.
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/150985
CM eXtreme Power 460w (no idea how quiet or not)
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/150596
BeQuiet 350w maybe worth look @Â£30 http://www.ebuyer.com/product/166784
(PC will need 100w or less - even under load)

You do realise these PCs are going to be really quite potent and rather over-kill for the started purpose. Also offices tend not to be that quiet so usually don't need the last word in silent PC to be inaudible.

Regards, Seb

dsl101 · Post by **dsl101** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:22 am

@NeilBlanchard - I was going to make a list, but the BeQuiet one recommended by @SebRad looks good to me - 120mm fan, and although not modular has a combined cable. I did wonder about using the Mugen 2 passively - I guess I can just check temps once its built.

@SebRad - eBuyer was my supplier of choice, so thanks ever so much for the links. Will probably stick with the 790GX based board and stick the Phenom II in anyway - for an extra Â£25, its probably worth it

The Corsair SSD has gone up 482% in ebuyer (I think its a pricing mistake), so will probably go for an Intel or Vertex one instead!

And yes, I know its probably overkill, but better to kill it once I think. Its a small office with 5-6 machines in, so any reduction in noise/heat will be noticeable. And they do use things like Lotus Notes and have multiple office apps open simultaneously, all of which are notorious resource hogs.

Thanks again everyone for the advice - will let you know how it goes!

Cheers,

Dave.

JackyPerformance.com · Post by **JackyPerformance.com** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:28 am

I'd opt for a Core 2 Duo since it produces less heat than that AMD, but otherwise looks nice so far

.

dhanson865 · Post by **dhanson865** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:39 am

If you think about saving cost you might get a cheaper AMD chipset motherboard and go with a ATI 4350 (which you can buy for $20 to $30 each nowdays). ebuyer has them about Â£22.

It won't add much power/heat and it might actually lower the cost of the build. I don't know if the memory/motherboard changes can save you >Â£22 but it's worth considering.

dsl101 · Post by **dsl101** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:25 am

Well, in the end I went for the Asus M4A78T-E, the BeQuiet and the Phenom II X3 710, Mugen 2 and a 60GB OCZ Vertex SSD.

I have to say, its pretty blazing, and virtually silent. I have the case fan on its lowest setting, and the Mugen 2 on Q-Fan (had to disable CPU fan failure checking in BIOS, as it things 300RPM is a failure!). But even with Prime95 running, I can't hear anything from the machine unless I put my ear to the exhaust, and it won't go above 33C according to CoreTemp. Normally its running at about 20C.

I haven't overclocked it, as I think the performance is more than adequate, but I do have a question about the memory. I got the Crucial Ballistix 2x2GB DDR3 1333MHz/PC3-10600, which is listed as CL6 memory. But CPU-Z shows them running at 9-9-9-24-33 @ 669MHz. I'm way beyond my level of comprehension now, so apologies if I'm talking nonsense, but on the SPD tab of CPU-Z, there are 3 sets of data, which (removing the table) look like:

Jedec #1: 444Mhz 6-6-6-16-22
Jedec #2: 592Mhz 8-8-8-22-30
Jedec #3: 666Mhz 9-9-9-24-33

So, I take it that the timings are somewhat dependent on the bus frequency (i.e. it would have to drop to 444Mhz to get CL6), whereas at the moment its running at 666Mhz(ish) and CL9? So, is there any benefit in fiddling with these? Doesn't reducing one and increasing the other just cancel out? I'm sure the answer is something like "it depends on what you're doing with the memory", but could anyone recommend a starter guide for getting to grips with the pros and cons?

Many thanks,

Dave.

Das_Saunamies · Post by **Das_Saunamies** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:07 am

An old rule of thumb I have been taught about memory settings: gaming needs the Hz so the memory works closer to the CPU's bus, and for everything else you want low latency.

The way I understood it - in the times of SDRAM and then DDR1 - was that low latency makes the memory more responsive to minor and random tasks, i.e. general use, and the Hz make it have monster throughput for good times, i.e. gaming. I have had both with Kingston ValueRAM and HyperX, OCZ Gold series in stock and gamer versions and now Corsair Dominators. Ideally, of course, you want both low latency and high Hz, but I can honestly say that if the rest of your rig is up to spec (powerful CPU, GPU), the difference between low-latency stock RAM and overclocker RAM is in the 3DMark score and not much else - as long as you have enough GB (these days the magic number is 3, 4 or 6, depending on channels).

I could not find the kit you specified on Crucial's website: all the memory listed at that speed is listed as CL=9. Could you give us the product or model number? Also, isn't DDR3 supposed to work in kits of three, not two, or is that chipset-specific?

Summa summarum: set-and-forget type of deal with RAM. Overclocking it can be a pain, rather just get fast stock sticks - not like they cost much, at least not if you have DDR2.

dsl101 · Post by **dsl101** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:25 am

The Crucial memory part no is bl2kit25664ba1336 - but I couldn't find this on Crucial's site. You can see a google cached version of the page here but I guess it might have been discontinued?

The BIOS has a million (approximation) settings for overclocking - far more than I can find details for on what they mean (what is 'Bank Swizzle' anyway?). But with Ai Overclock Tuner set to manual the following options are available:

CPU Ratio: 5x - 13x
CPU Bus: 200 - 600 (MHz?)
PCIE Freq: 100 - 150
DRAM Freq: Auto, 800, 1067, 1333, 1600
DDR3 Mem Profile: Enabled, Disabled
CPU/NB Freq: Auto, 800, 1000, 1200, 1400, 1600, 1800, 2000
HT Link Speed: Auto, 200, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1200, 1400, 1600, 1800, 2000
DRAM Controller: Settings for Bank Interleaving, Channel Interleaving, Clk to all DIMMs, MemClk Tristate C3/ATLVID, Hole Remap, DCT Unganged Mode, Power Down, Page Smashing, DCQ max bypass, and my favourite, Bank Swizzle Mode (which is enabled, by the way)
DRAM Timing / Driving: Settings for Command Rate, TCL, TRCD, TRP, TRAS, TRTP, TRC, TWR, TRRD, TRWTTO, TWRRD, TWTR, TWRWR, TRDRD, TRFC0, TRFC1, TREF

I know the 9-9-9-24-33 numbers relate to some of those, but the others are far more impenetrable. Currently, the timing config is listed in the BIOS as 9-9-9-24-5-33-10-4, which I guess corresponds to the first 8 parameters in the list after command rate.

There are some other settings to do with voltage - DRAM voltage is listed as 1.5V at the moment, and the Crucial box says these are 1.8V sticks, so I guess they could go up a little. But I won't if I don't need to... Just want to make sure I'm getting the best out of the system without going over the memory standard spec.

I've tried changing the timings to 6-6-6-16-22, but although it boots up fine, CPU-Z reports its still running at 9-9-9-24-33, so I'm not sure what else I'll need to tweak in the BIOS to get it to take those lower figures.

Thanks,

Dave.

dsl101 · Post by **dsl101** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:31 am

Sorry - bit more fiddling later, and I upped the DRAM voltage from 1.5V to 1.8V and got CPU-Z telling me 6-6-6-16-22! I think those timings weren't working at 1.5V, and the BIOS was loading safe values, but because I was going into the BIOS setting screen on every boot to check the numbers, I wasn't seeing the error message on the POST screen.

Now, I guess I should run memtest86 for a while...

The CPU bus speed is still at 200Mhz - is there much mileage in increasing that? Oh, if only the 'Ai Tuner' was an AI - it could probably help me work out the best combination...

Das_Saunamies · Post by **Das_Saunamies** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:56 am

Well that sounds more like it! Usually you do need to deviate from JDEC spec to achieve manufacturer-claimed timings and/or frequency.

If Memtest86+ runs through fine three or more times, I'd say stick with that. Judging by the part number and cached page, it seems that the memory comes from individual sticks rather than a kit, which might be bad for trying to get them to run in multi-channel mode. Wouldn't think there was that much variation in such a standard part, but there is. Only way to get consistent results with timings, frequency and channel co-operation is to buy sticks as a kit.

I don't really know enough about overclocking that chipset and CPU to be of more use, sorry. Integrated memory controllers? HERESY!

dsl101 · Post by **dsl101** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:45 am

Memtest is running as I write, and all seems OK for now. Can't easily check how much hotter the RAM is getting, but it did have a heatsink on it...

I did buy the memory as a kit (as can be seen from the first part no), but that link was the only reference I could find to the individual stick part nos. as reported by CPU-Z...

Cheers,

Dave.

Rucker · Post by **Rucker** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:49 am

dsl101 wrote:@NeilBlanchard - I was going to make a list, but the BeQuiet one recommended by @SebRad looks good to me - 120mm fan, and although not modular has a combined cable. I did wonder about using the Mugen 2 passively - I guess I can just check temps once its built.

I've had no problems with an x3 720 running the Mugen passively, even with a 10% overclock.

dsl101 · Post by **dsl101** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:34 am

Well, Memtest86 seems happy with the memory at 6-6-6-16-22 and 1.74V (I got some errors at 1.7V). I'm just wanting to make sure the memory runs as cool as it can at that speed. I presume there's no way of monitoring memory temperature via software is there?

I couldn't get the 4th core to work at all - I forgot to check the batch number before putting the heat sink on - any way to find that out after the fact?

Finally, is 20C idle, 30C load a reasonable temperature for this CPU? I'm so used to being able to fry eggs on my Athlon 64 X2 that I was wondering if the temperatures were out for some reason...

Cheers,

Dave.

Das_Saunamies · Post by **Das_Saunamies** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:57 am

dsl101 wrote:"-- there's no way of monitoring memory temperature via software is there?"

"-- any way to find that [CPU batch] out after the fact?"

I have not seen memory that had any type of temperature sensor in it, so monitoring sticks off the bat is impossible. Usually memory is fine with airflow provided by case fans though, so wouldn't worry about it if you have at least one intake and an exhaust. Buy an external monitor (Zalman, mCubed, Scythe) if you're worried.

CPU-Z might be able to tell you what you need to know about your processor. If the info is not in plain sight, compare with known results to find out what's what.

Colleague wants high perf and silence - hows this spec look?

Colleague wants high perf and silence - hows this spec look?

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