Sandy Bridge system for general home use, critiques wanted

[epy1967]

Hi all,

This is my first post, but I have lurked here on and off for a few years and am impressed by the collective knowledge of SPCR users.

I will shortly be building a new PC, to be used for general household computing tasks:

- Email and web access.
- Home productivity.
- Digital media library management.
- Probably some light- to mid-weight photo editing and video editing and authoring.
- Only very casual gaming, if even that.

My priorities for this build are:

- Stability. Once I have it set up and working I want it to stay that way without much effort on my part. Maximizing stability and reliability is more important to me than maximizing performance, so I won't be doing any overclocking or other "performance tuning".
- Longevity. I want to get at least 5 years out of this system before I'll want to rebuild it.
- Quietness (which it's why I'm here, naturally). I don't expect my new system to be silent, but I would like it to be substantially less noisy than the unmodified Shuttle SB51G SFF box it will replace.

The parts I have tentatively chosen, and some comments on the choices:

- Case: Antec NSK2480
- PS: Antec NSK2480 stock PS.

I have young-ish children at home, and their friends frequently visit. I want to keep my system out of harm's way, up on a desktop in my home office. Based upon reviews here and elsewhere, the NSK2480 looks like the obvious solution.

- MoBo: Intel DH67GD
- CPU: Intel i5-2500K
- CPU Cooler: i5-2500K stock cooler
- VGA: i5-2500K/H67 integrated

I want an H67 board as I believe the i5-2500K's integrated GPU will meet my needs (and the "Quick Sync" video encoding/decoding capability may be useful if I do use the machine for amateur video stuff). I realize that the i5-2500K is probably overkill and its overclocking capabilities are wasted when used with the H67, but if I'm going to live with integrated graphics I at least want the good stuff. Like many others, I find it puzzling that Intel doesn't offer the HD 3000 GPU in a lower-end desktop CPU.

Is the stock cooler the right choice? I assume it will keep the CPU adequately cool. Is it likely to be objectionably noisy? Will I be able to swap it out for something that is more quiet without completely dismantling the system, if later decide to?

- DRAM: 8GB of whatever PC3-10600 Intel or Crucial recommends.

I want lots, as there will eventually be four people with user logins and I would like to be able to switch between users without having to close open applications. Most DDR3 that I find has CAS latency of 9, although there are lower-latency DIMMs out there... is it worth the extra money for CL=8 or CL=7 DRAM? I'm thinking no, as I'm not really trying to squeeze every last bit of performance per clock cycle out of the system.

- OS/App HD: Crucial C300 CTFDDAC064MAG-1G1 2.5" 64GB SATA III MLC
- Data HD: Samsung Spinpoint F4 HD204UI 2TB 5400 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5"

The SSD is probably an extravagance, but I'm interested in decreasing the boot and application load times (i.e. making the system snappy) and the large data drive I want is going to be somewhat slow.

Optical Drive: Samsung SH-223L
Accessories: 5.25" front panel bracket with IEEE1394, eSATA, card reader?
OS: Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit

Does anyone know of a good card reader with IEEE1394 and eSATA connectors that would fit in my empty 5.25" drive bay? All the ones I find on Amazon and Newegg review poorly.

Any comments or criticisms are welcome.

Thanks,
Eric

[tim851]

The boxed cooler will probably be too loud for you, if you are noise conscious enough to have found your way here.
Choice of replacement is limited by the height of the NSK2480. There are some low(er) profile top-down coolers to recommend, such as the Scythe Big Shuriken, Thermalright AXP-140 and Noctua NH-C14 (in bottom-fan only config, as reviewed recently by spcr). That is in ascending order of performance and price.

Just cooling a Core i5-2xxx won't take a lot, the Big Shuriken should suffice. The AXP-140 is almost impossible to find and the NH-C14 is prohibitively expensive.

As a sidenote: Intel CPUs with a 'K'-suffix are overclocking CPUs. In the case of Sandy Bridge that means you can set the multiplicator 4 steps higher. However, that will only work with a P67-chipset. Those can't use the integrated graphics. On the H67 chipset, that feature of the K-CPU will be lost. So you could save those 20$ and go for the Non-K CPU.

[quest_for_silence]

- Case: Antec NSK2480
- PS: Antec NSK2480 stock PS.

Unless you've ran out of money, the EarthWatts is simply not quiet at all. Talking about the "quality" of noise, recent units are moreover obtrusive (even if not unbearably loud). If you don't want to swap it out, please do yourself a favour and swap at least its fan, it's easy and fun (even if this void the warranty): if in case, the most expensive choice would be a ULNA+LNA Noctua R-8, but a Scythe SFF80A would also work well, and even a cheap Xilence or AC F8, when conveniently undervolted. If you choose a decent mobo (the Intel isn't), with four fan header, you may choose to drive it externally, and doing so the most bang for the buck is probably the Nexus Real Silent Case Fan 80mm.

Is the stock cooler the right choice?

Definitely no: it's literally atrocious.
Moreover, you are pairing it with an Intel mobo, which is unable to control it due to its inadequate BIOS: frankly speaking, please don't take offense by my words, this is one of the worst combination I've recently seen.
You need a good cooler, and you need a good mobo, i.e. an ASUS right now.

About the IGP, I'm not well aware of the new feature of the HD3000: but as it's as powerful as a Radeon HD5450, I don't see why you should go for it.

is it worth the extra money for CL=8 or CL=7 DRAM? I'm thinking no, as I'm not really trying to squeeze every last bit of performance per clock cycle out of the system.

No, it doesn't worth: there's a recent Bit-Tech article about Sandy Bridge and RAM, and it shows how it's far more important to maximize the bandwith, the sweet spot being the DDR3-1600. Check it out.

The SSD is probably an extravagance, but I'm interested in decreasing the boot and application load times (i.e. making the system snappy) and the large data drive I want is going to be somewhat slow.

I'm a fan of recent 2.5" 7200rpm Seagate drives, but it isn't my key point; unless you get an unrefusable deal, I mean it's not the right moment to buy just that SSD: Crucial C400 is coming soon, and it worths the wait. Even forthcoming SandForce and Intel G3 will shake the market very soon: so my advice is wait (on SSD).

Any comments or criticisms are welcome.

You need some fans: the Antec's ones are loud.
And if you aren't going to control them via software, you will need a rheobus like the Scythe Kaze Server (or a costlier mCubed T-Balancer).

[twitch]

You cannot overclock the cpu ratio multiplier on h67 and without overclocking you will rarely hit thermal envelopes that would require the fan to crank up. Most of the reviews of the newer stock cpu coolers indicate that it should be more that enough. Without the fan cranking up, it should be fairly quiet. Anyone know different?

[ignatz]

Without the fan cranking up, it should be fairly quiet. Anyone know different?

I'd like to hear some pointed comments on that question myself.

I'm in much the same position as the OP. I'll be building Sandy Bridge shortly and have pretty much the same requirements.

Have you considered and rejected a fanless power supply (Seasonic 400 or 460)??

All I have read about Sandy Bridge says it is quite sensitive to voltage, so I would be reluctant to stray from 1.5 volt RAM.

Considering the reduced power consumption of these things, is it possible you could run a sizable heatsink without a fan if you had an exhaust fan and a fan on the PSU---particularly since you plan to use the integrated graphics---as I do??

[quest_for_silence]

Most

Which ones? I already know Xbit Labs quick notes on it.

of the reviews of the newer stock cpu coolers indicate that it should be more that enough. Without the fan cranking up, it should be fairly quiet.

Actually it doesn't seem such a reasonable guesswork, IMVHO.

If we give a look to the Clarkdale stock cooler, it is beefier than the Sandy Bridge's one, and the two cores i3s are close to SNB efficiency: despite that, the Clarkdale's one is probably one of the worst stock cooler in the last 6-7 years, with reference to sound, even if strictly it's just my own opinion as hardcore silencer (or so about).

The new one is furtherly smaller than the Clarkdale's one, and it heavily banks on the new Sandy Bridge load efficiency to be so (about +20% on Lynnfields): therefore apparently there's no room for silent operation, as what has been gained at efficiency, it has been already spent on heatsink savings.

Obviously, if you'd judge a stock i5-661 or an i3-550 as quiet at idle, we probably have a fairly different level of expectations about quietness.

[twitch]

So I have grown uneasy about going stock. Then I read this article on stock cooling http://www.silentpcreview.com/intel-i7-hsf. While they don't use the same stock cooler that snb has, the fact that my htpc is using a fairly closed (not well ventilated) and foam padded antec p183, there isn't a lot of air flowing in from outside with the front panel door closed. I read the review on the inexpensive scythe mugen 2 rev b esp with the two fan is amazing. While I don't have numbers (db) to back me wrt how much sound attenuation I would get going from stock snb to mugen 2, it's worth it not to hassle with it later.

[epy1967]

Hi again,

Thanks for all of the replies...

As a sidenote: Intel CPUs with a 'K'-suffix are overclocking CPUs. In the case of Sandy Bridge that means you can set the multiplicator 4 steps higher. However, that will only work with a P67-chipset. Those can't use the integrated graphics. On the H67 chipset, that feature of the K-CPU will be lost. So you could save those 20$ and go for the Non-K CPU.

The only reason I want the i5-2500K is the HD 3000 GPU... I can't objectively say that I absolutely need it, but the extra $20 won't break the bank. Thanks, though.

- Case: Antec NSK2480
- PS: Antec NSK2480 stock PS.

Unless you've ran out of money, the EarthWatts is simply not quiet at all. Talking about the "quality" of noise, recent units are moreover obtrusive (even if not unbearably loud). If you don't want to swap it out, please do yourself a favour and swap at least its fan, it's easy and fun (even if this void the warranty) {...}

I'll stick with the EarthWatts to start with; if it's too noisy a fan swap for something better won't be a problem.

Is the stock cooler the right choice?

Definitely no: it's literally atrocious.
Moreover, you are pairing it with an Intel mobo, which is unable to control it due to its inadequate BIOS: frankly speaking, please don't take offense by my words, this is one of the worst combination I've recently seen.
You need a good cooler, and you need a good mobo, i.e. an ASUS right now.

No offense taken. This is exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for.

The ASUS P8H67-M EVO looks like it should meet my needs. The stock cooler for the Sandy Bridge CPUs is apparently new; I have seen some reviews (http://goo.gl/IgEeP, http://goo.gl/McvN3) that indicate that it might be better than Intel's older stock coolers. But, given how bad the older coolers are (I'm thinking of the SPCR write-up of the LGA 1366 cooler), I'll probably go with an aftermarket cooler just to be safe. The cooler of choice for the NSK2480 seems to be the Scythe Ninja Mini, but unfortunately it's out of production and no one has old stock available for sale any more. The large low-profile downdraft coolers mentioned by tim851 would probably be very cool and quiet, but they look like they might be difficult to install (especially on the ASUS board with its VRM heatsinks). The Scythe Samurai ZZ should fit, with ~20mm of clearance between the fan and the top of the case (Ninja Mini is ~115mm tall, the Samurai ZZ is ~95mm tall). I would install it with the heat pipes facing the DIMM sockets and the other side overhanging some of the VRMs.

is it worth the extra money for CL=8 or CL=7 DRAM? I'm thinking no, as I'm not really trying to squeeze every last bit of performance per clock cycle out of the system.

No, it doesn't worth: there's a recent Bit-Tech article about Sandy Bridge and RAM, and it shows how it's far more important to maximize the bandwith, the sweet spot being the DDR3-1600. Check it out.

I think ASUS P8H67-M (and the Intel DH67GD) both top out at DDR3-1333...

The SSD is probably an extravagance, but I'm interested in decreasing the boot and application load times (i.e. making the system snappy) and the large data drive I want is going to be somewhat slow.

I'm a fan of recent 2.5" 7200rpm Seagate drives, but it isn't my key point; unless you get an unrefusable deal, I mean it's not the right moment to buy just that SSD: Crucial C400 is coming soon, and it worths the wait. Even forthcoming SandForce and Intel G3 will shake the market very soon: so my advice is wait (on SSD).

I appreciate the advice, but I've been putting this build off for too long as it is. Unless I am forced delay things for other reasons I'll probably stick with the C300. I imagine that SSDs will continue improve very rapidly (both in price and speed); maybe swapping the C300 out for something better in a couple-three years would be a good mid-life upgrade for the system.

Have you considered and rejected a fanless power supply (Seasonic 400 or 460)??

I actually hadn't... If the noise from the NSK2480 stock supply is obnoxious and a fan swap turns out to be more trouble than it's worth I'll have a look at these.

All I have read about Sandy Bridge says it is quite sensitive to voltage, so I would be reluctant to stray from 1.5 volt RAM.

Thanks.

Considering the reduced power consumption of these things, is it possible you could run a sizable heatsink without a fan if you had an exhaust fan and a fan on the PSU---particularly since you plan to use the integrated graphics---as I do??

There are other SPCR forum posts that mention that the Ninja Mini could be run fanless in the NSK2480 (at least with lower-powered CPUs), but as I mention earlier it isn't available any longer. Shorter tower coolers like the Cooler Master Hyper 101 would physically fit, by none of them look like they have enough mass to make me confident that they could be used as a passive CPU heatsink...

Anyways, thanks again for all of your comments. Please keep them coming!

Eric

[quest_for_silence]

The only reason I want the i5-2500K is the HD 3000 GPU

Have you read Anand's concern about the 24fps issue? Moreover QuickSync currently seems have virtually no support.
If those concerns should be enough for you, an i2400 (or a discrete HD card) might be a worthy competitor (over the 2500K).

if it's too noisy a fan swap for something better won't be a problem.

Due the very low power consumption a Scythe SFF80A should be the best option.

The ASUS P8H67-M EVO looks like it should meet my needs.

You might also need a cable splitter (it's a common issue with mATX boards, too few controllable fan headers).

I have seen some reviews (http://goo.gl/IgEeP, http://goo.gl/McvN3) that indicate that it might be better than Intel's older stock coolers.

I think that just the first one declare it could be quieter, even if that source is somewhat unreliable: I'm saying so as they have judged "silent" the CM Silent Pro Gold, a unit that I've just sent back for its noise, not unbearable but to me rather disappointing with reference to its elder brothers.
I may be wrong, as other - not so trustful, according to me - source (Guru3D I mean) talks about quietness at load as LAN OC, but currently I'm in good company (Oklahoma Wolf) on this advice.
However, I say that just for the sake of talking.

The Scythe Samurai ZZ should fit, with ~20mm of clearance between the fan and the top of the case (Ninja Mini is ~115mm tall, the Samurai ZZ is ~95mm tall).

If it had to fit, the Zipang 2 should be far more better choice (for quietness and cooling): you may ask to Scythe's customer support about.

I appreciate the advice, but I've been putting this build off for too long as it is. Unless I am forced delay things for other reasons I'll probably stick with the C300.

I just meant to postpone the SSD purchase: I was thinking it should be trivial next in the future drop in any SSD with the aid of a cloning software like Acronis True Image.

Anyway, good luck with your build!

[faugusztin]

is it worth the extra money for CL=8 or CL=7 DRAM? I'm thinking no, as I'm not really trying to squeeze every last bit of performance per clock cycle out of the system.

No, it doesn't worth: there's a recent Bit-Tech article about Sandy Bridge and RAM, and it shows how it's far more important to maximize the bandwith, the sweet spot being the DDR3-1600. Check it out.

DDR3-1600 CL9 or DDR3-1333 CL7. Which funnily enough is most times very comparable in price. Lower CL @ DDR3-1600 comes at price.

[HFat]

Any comments or criticisms are welcome.

Any Sandy Bridge system would be overkill for your requirements. There's sense in going for a Sandy Bridge system (decent IGP and low power consumption) but the only point of spending more than the cheapest Sandy Bridge would be to reduce power consumption.
8G of RAM is overkill as well.
But faster drives would not be overkill. So if you want to spend money on performance, I think you should spend it there because that's still the main bottleneck given the purposes you stated. You may not be aware that low-capacity SSDs have low sequential write performance (a 128G C300 would be almost twice as fast in that respect and other controllers are even faster). You could use your hard drive for that but a single low-power drive is not going to be very fast either.

[ces]

The boxed cooler will probably be too loud for you.

That may be so. And it is a plausible assumption... but the new boxed coolers look a lot different. They are much lower in hight.

Does anyone have any actual experience with the new boxed coolers?

[quest_for_silence]

The boxed cooler will probably be too loud for you.

That may be so. And it is a plausible assumption... but the new boxed coolers look a lot different. They are much lower in hight.

So much less effective, I suppose: just as a side note, there's a forumer who cool the so efficient i5 2500K passively using a Prolimatech MegaHalems: his CPU hit 61°C. I'm wondering about a fanned 20mm heatsink performance...

[quest_for_silence]

I'm wondering about a fanned 20mm heatsink performance...

Someone seems finding it "whisper quiet". To me, it should be actually surprising.

[quest_for_silence]

To me, it should be actually surprising.

Even a somewhat reputable source seem to find it surprisingly good (at least at idle).

[CA_Steve]

8G of RAM is overkill as well.

Except when you are doing a lot of Photoshop work.

[epy1967]

Any comments or criticisms are welcome.

Any Sandy Bridge system would be overkill for your requirements. There's sense in going for a Sandy Bridge system (decent IGP and low power consumption) but the only point of spending more than the cheapest Sandy Bridge would be to reduce power consumption.
8G of RAM is overkill as well.

But faster drives would not be overkill. So if you want to spend money on performance, I think you should spend it there because that's still the main bottleneck given the purposes you stated. You may not be aware that low-capacity SSDs have low sequential write performance (a 128G C300 would be almost twice as fast in that respect and other controllers are even faster). You could use your hard drive for that but a single low-power drive is not going to be very fast either.[/quote]

[epy1967]

Any comments or criticisms are welcome.

Any Sandy Bridge system would be overkill for your requirements. There's sense in going for a Sandy Bridge system (decent IGP and low power consumption) but the only point of spending more than the cheapest Sandy Bridge would be to reduce power consumption.
8G of RAM is overkill as well.

You're probably right, at least at the present time. However, I do want this system to be useful 5+ years from now, so I'm ok with it being a somewhat over-built to start with.

But faster drives would not be overkill. So if you want to spend money on performance, I think you should spend it there because that's still the main bottleneck given the purposes you stated. You may not be aware that low-capacity SSDs have low sequential write performance (a 128G C300 would be almost twice as fast in that respect and other controllers are even faster). You could use your hard drive for that but a single low-power drive is not going to be very fast either.

I honestly hadn't noticed that smaller SSDs generally have lower sequential write performance than larger ones; thanks for pointing that out. But, if I plan to use the SSD strictly as a boot and application storage drive, how important is sequential write performance? I would think that random read/write and possibly sequential read performance would be more significant in such usage.

Eric

[quest_for_silence]

how important is sequential write performance

To simplify (and maybe making a mistake), that performance, particularly with uncompressible data, is - for current generation SSD - a somewhat dependable indicator for good or bad real world performances.

[HFat]

I do want this system to be useful 5+ years from now, so I'm ok with it being a somewhat over-built to start with.

That's a bogus argument. If you honestly want to know why, I'll explain but it's usually a rationalization rather than a reasoned argument.
Besides you're talking about an *extreme* over-build as far as CPU performance is concerned. It's not a reason not to upgrade because these CPUs bring much more to the table (efficiency, features and so on). But it's perhaps a reason to look at what matters instead of the clock speed.

But, if I plan to use the SSD strictly as a boot and application storage drive, how important is sequential write performance? I would think that random read/write and possibly sequential read performance would be more significant in such usage.

You're quite right (if you can manage to always copy large files to spinning media). The importance of sequential write performance depends on the way you use the SSD (and it's hardly an indication of overall performance). But then you would benefit from a faster hard drive or from a RAID0. Don't get me wrong: I wouldn't bother myself. But you'd see the difference when you're writing large files. I doubt you'd be able to notice *any* difference between the slowest and fastest currently available Sandy Bridge quad-cores without resorting to benchmarks and the like.

[twitch]

For windows 7 applications ssd random read/write > sequential read/write speeds.

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/ssd- ... ,2342.html
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/ssd- ... ,2341.html

Look beyond synthetic benchmarks, esp focus on the actual real world use that is consistent with what you're going to use it for the most.