Thoughts of using Turion 64 in a HTPC build

paulsiu · Post by **paulsiu** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:33 am

Read the Turion article, it appears that while idle, Turion is not much better than a desktop 754. Under a full load, the cpu is about 20-30% more efficient than a desktop. However, the article used a old ClawHammer 754 for comparison. I wonder for example how much of an improvement the full load power is over a recent 939 A64. Anyone have any idea?

On New Egg, price of a Turion MT-40 is $269, the equivalent 939 A64 3700+ is going for $213. A MT-37 is $224 compared to a $168 A64 3200+. On the other hand, a MT-32 is going for $145 and an A64 3000 is going for $153. Unless you’re paying for the low end, you’re basically paying for that power drop in the price. This is assuming of course that you’re going to chuck the stock cooler because it’s too loud.

Another factor to consider, none of the 754 boards have DVI. If I am building a HTPC and I want a DVI, I would have to buy a video card instead of using the integrated video. Would that not take up the difference between a A64 and a Turion?

mc2wheels · Post by **mc2wheels** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:51 am

Who knows when this will be available, but they announced this board for New Year.

http://www.albatron.com.tw/english/it/m ... ro_id=211#

I also have no idea if it will recognize a Turion, or even if it does, if it would use the correct voltage. And then, will it handle cool'n'quiet? But if it does, it would be a perfect HTPC board.

I don't see anywhere that is shipping this yet, but they said it would be available in January 2006 -- I guess they've missed their date.

--EDIT--
I just did a quick google search, and I could not find anyone selling this board yet (at least on English speaking sites), but lots of sites list the specs with a "Not yet available for sale" disclaimer.

paulsiu · Post by **paulsiu** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:53 am

I guess they're not popular in the US, though I see them in the UK.

stupid · Post by **stupid** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:10 pm

Xbitlabs.com has this review about power consumption and heat. Note that the newer Venice core uses more power than the older Winchester core. In terms of functionality, Winchester lacks SSE3 extensions.

Unlike the Pentium M, the Turion will remain in the notebook arena because there are too many unknowns about compatiblity with desktop motherboards. Motherboards may be able to recognize the CPU, but either undervolt, or more likely overvolt the CPU. Additionally, Power Now! may not be implemented at all. Mobile CPU do not use C'nQ.

With the demise of S754 and increasing general interests in dual core CPU people may no longer consider the Turion a viable side project. Last summer, I have done an exhaustive search for any information I can gather on a viable Turion HTPC. I've finally decided drop it all together by the last winter. Even the recent Turion article here at SPCR is more of a guide than any real review. In summary, while doable, it is not without it's potholes.

Since I have postponed my HTPC upgrade (my primary rig is more important) I will be looking at the upcoming Intel Merom, dual core Turion socket S1, and the 65nm A64 X2 (by that time it may be renamed to Sempron) as the possible upgrade path for my HTPC. The S1 Turion will most like be off the consideration list since it will take sometime before a desktop S1 motherboard will be available, if at all.

In summary, my suggestion would be to use a low power A64 3200+ S939, or something similar. While it may not use as little power as the Turion 64 under full load, you will not have the potential headaches associated with the Turion in a desktop environment. You can opt for the S754 Sempron 64, which uses less power than the A64, but you will be locking yourself into a dead platform with little potential for upgrade. There is no potential for uprading if you intend to get the Semprom 3400+, as no faster Sempron will be produced as far as I know. The Athlon 64 S939 will become the new Sempron series sometime after Socket AM2 is released. Therefore, S939 will have a future at least through the middle or end of 2007.

derekva · Post by **derekva** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:27 pm

AMD does have a S754 Athlon64 3000+ in 90nm that has a TDP of only 51W...that's lower than any other non-mobile processor including the Sempron series (which are rated at 62W).

-Derek

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:17 pm

the newer Venice core uses more power than the older Winchester core

Hmm, I could have sworn it was the other way around. So the Winchester was the coolest A64 ever made? (apart from the mobile versions obviously)

stupid · Post by **stupid** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:33 pm

jaganath wrote:
the newer Venice core uses more power than the older Winchester core
Hmm, I could have sworn it was the other way around. So the Winchester was the coolest A64 ever made? (apart from the mobile versions obviously)

Yep, at least according to Xbitlabs' graph. Go me scratching my head too. But it doesn't apply to my build since I'm going for X2.

stupid · Post by **stupid** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:47 pm

derekva wrote:AMD does have a S754 Athlon64 3000+ in 90nm that has a TDP of only 51W...that's lower than any other non-mobile processor including the Sempron series (which are rated at 62W).

-Derek

Can you post a link to someplace that sells it? I've Googled it, but no store front seems to have it.

If it is not being sold then the 90nm S754 Athlon64 3000+ can't be considered an option.

Anywaste, I stand behind my recommendation of socket 939 if upgrading the CPU is going to happen within a couple of years. That's because the Athlon 64 should be switching over to the 65nm after Socket AM2 Athlons are available. By then the S939 Athlon 64 will be called Sempron so as not to confuse people with the new Athlon 64 family.

defaultluser · Post by **defaultluser** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:18 pm

The 0.09 micron desktop Athlon 64 Socket 939 chips use the same power at load as the Turion ML counterparts, they are basically the same chip. In fact, the 512k cache desktop processors will use a bit less power due to half the cache (SRAM cache at 2GHz is fairly power-hungry). Do not confuse these with the older 0.13 micron core used in the review, I was upset they did that because it paints an inaccurate picture of how close desktop Athlon 64s are to Turions.

You'd be surprised how low voltage most Athlon 64 desktop chips can go, in this thread, most of them run stock speed at 1.2v, the equivilant of a Turion MT.

I highly recommend undervolting an Athlon 64 Socket 939 desktop chip. Tools like Crystal CPUID make it possible to set multiple clocks / voltages for multiple performance levels, and Speedfan allows you to absolutely minimize your fan speed.

mc2wheels · Post by **mc2wheels** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:12 pm

Here is the link. And according to this it is a 51w chip. And according that same site lists the 939 versions as 67w. Very interesting.

tschanrm · Post by **tschanrm** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:25 pm

defaultluser wrote:The 0.09 micron desktop Athlon 64 Socket 939 chips use the same power at load as the Turion ML counterparts, they are basically the same chip. In fact, the 512k cache desktop processors will use a bit less power due to half the cache (SRAM cache at 2GHz is fairly power-hungry). Do not confuse these with the older 0.13 micron core used in the review, I was upset they did that because it paints an inaccurate picture of how close desktop Athlon 64s are to Turions.

The article states that both the venice and winchester core use the .09 micron process. Only the newcastle core had the .13 micron process, and it consumed the most power.

paulsiu · Post by **paulsiu** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:47 am

According to X-bit, a venice core idles at around 16W at idle and no greater than 60W at full power. SPCR article indicates that a MT-40 idles at 36W and burns at 64W. This mean venice is more efficient than Turion, which isn't right. Is there a different between the measurement of the two labs? Thanks.

Devonavar · Post by **Devonavar** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:42 pm

You're comparing CPU power consumption with system power consumption. You need to go back and look up the CPU power consumption, which is ~2.5W idle / 26W load IIRC. Those numbers include efficiency losses in the VRMs on the motherboard, so the actual CPU numbers are even lower.

paulsiu · Post by **paulsiu** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:36 am

OK, so a Turion uses roughly half the power of a non-Turion venice. Hmm.. I wonder if a Turion is better at undervolting than a desktop processor?

stupid · Post by **stupid** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:19 am

paulsiu wrote:OK, so a Turion uses roughly half the power of a non-Turion venice. Hmm.. I wonder if a Turion is better at undervolting than a desktop processor?

I believe I read somewhere that the minimum voltage necessary to bootup any Athlon is 1.1v. Therefore, to undervolt the CPU further would have to been done within Windows. I hope someone can verify this.

All I can think about right now though is Conroe......

Conroe.... (Saliva dripping from mouth)....

frostedflakes · Post by **frostedflakes** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:35 am

I did not have any problems running my Turion64 at <1.1V on a DFI Lanparty UT nF3 250Gb.

buzzlightyear · Post by **buzzlightyear** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:05 am

Let me share my experience in quiet HPTC. I have two setups-- one working for a year and one WIP.

The first one: 45w AMD Mobile Oakville (512k cache) s754 1.8ghz running on a DFI NF3 250-GB board. I use a ATI 9500 with Zalman heatpipe fanless HS. I believe at 1.8GHz stock 1.35v, TDP should be ~31.5w. When undervolted it to 1.1v (still @ 1.8ghz) , I beleve the TDP drop to ~20.9-24.9w. ( I am quoting frostedflakes) I use a AMD stock 4-heatpipe HS. The case is a Antec Sonata with roofing tin tapes covering inside. I run MCE with two tuners. Also I run ffdshow to upconvert DVD signal. Processing DVD/ffdshow is the only task that's close to maxing out the CPU power. The system is dead silent.

I am lucky to have a great overclocker for such low-power CPU as well. I use CrystalCUPID to throttle
270 x 9 = 2430mz 1.475v
270 x 8 = 2160 1.3 v
270 x 7 = 1890 1.15v
270 x 6 = 1620 1.025

I think a low-power Turion instead of Oakville would do the same or better job.

Right now I am trying to eliminate the need for a graphic card by switching to a motherboard with IGP. But no s754 mobo has DVI output. Yes, I try to find the Albatron mobo, it is just not available anywhere in the US.

On to the next HPTC setup that I have been working on for the last few days.

I brought a Opteron 144 (1.8ghz Vence core, 1m cache) and Opteron 165 (1.8 ghz dual core) and a DFI RS482 mobo with ATI Express 200 IGP and a Biostar Tforce6100-939. I am having a contest to come up with the best combination of CPU and board.

But anyway, both Opteron CAN boot into windows (stable) at 1.05v. In fact I am typing this while the Opteron 144 is being Primed @ 0.99v/ 1.8ghz. Look like it can go lower. At this voltage, I don't know the actual power consumption is (but it has to be pretty low). I have yet be able to test the graphic side of the DFI RS482 (i.e DVI)

My wife has already told me to get rid of most of the gears or else. I better work fast to finish the project and sell the gears that I don't need VERY SOON.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:56 am

My wife has already told me to get rid of most of the gears or else. I better work fast to finish the project and sell the gears that I don't need VERY SOON.

I would be more than willing to take any of the above components off your hands if it keeps the peace chez Buzz.

buzzlightyear · Post by **buzzlightyear** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:58 am

Lord jaganath, how noble.

jaganath wrote:
My wife has already told me to get rid of most of the gears or else. I better work fast to finish the project and sell the gears that I don't need VERY SOON.

I would be more than willing to take any of the above components off your hands if it keeps the peace chez Buzz.

Thoughts of using Turion 64 in a HTPC build

Thoughts of using Turion 64 in a HTPC build

Albatron is putting out a 6150/430 board for socket 754

I never see any Albatron stuff in the US

The 51w chip is at newegg

Hey, why is the x-bit lab and SPCR numbers different

OK, that makes sense then

Re: OK, that makes sense then