Fanless PSU in Watercooled system?

ziphnor · Post by **ziphnor** » Sun May 15, 2005 8:21 am

Hi,

I have a nice watercooled system, with the pump and a 'life size' radiator, outside(yes i drilled a hole in the wall in order to get the tubing outside

Due to the size of the radiator, it doesnt need any fans. Inside my system, the only remaining fans are those in my PSU(An antec true480).
My case is covered in sound dampening stuff on the inside, and i have a 'whisperbox' on the end of the case. All in all, its pretty quiet, but the fans in the PSU has a tendency to cause some low frequency vibrations which are extremely annoying. I suppose i could work more on vibration dampening the PSU, but id much rather just buy a new PSU that is completely silent.

I've seen alot of nice fanless PSU's and im considering buying one of the more powerful ones(>= 500W). However, i suspect that they are based on the assumption that there is a good airflow in the case, which doesnt hold true for me, as there are no other fans to generate the airflow.
So my first question is whether a fanless PSU will work in such a system, or if it will just overheat or activate its 'emergency' fan all the time.

The alternative is to buy a watercooled PSU. They seem a bit rare, and the ones i have seen are only ~450W. Are anyone aware of any ~500W watercooled PSU's? I am aware that these things are expensive, but i would still like to find them, as i have plenty of cooling capacity in my watercooling system, and it seems silly not to use it for cooling the last remaining component.

Id appreciate any feedback you guys can offer and thanks for reading my post.

Qwertyiopisme · Post by **Qwertyiopisme** » Sun May 15, 2005 10:23 am

I think that as long as the main heat-outputting things are watercooled (cpu, graphics card, maybe your nb and harddisks, maybe even your mosfets), that it wont have any problem. However I would put in a really low speed fan (A nexus at maybe 5V) and run that, beacuase noise wise there is no major difference, but the cooling ability is maybe 5 times better (that value was jsut pulled out of my ass, but it's something obscenly much better).

peteamer · Post by **peteamer** » Sun May 15, 2005 10:48 am

What about a fan swap for the PSU?

Nice panaflo could do wonders...

Pete

ziphnor · Post by **ziphnor** » Sun May 15, 2005 11:05 am

Qwertyiopisme:
Actually i just have GPU+CPU watercooling, northbridge only has a heatsink, and i havent done anything for my HD's, but ive never had problems with them either. In my experience, HDs doesnt get too hot, im much more worried about the PSU, a long time back on my Pentium 60Mhz i had a PSU where the fan gave out, and it shorted out completely a while after. I know that even a small fan would help, but i would really like to avoid that if i can. I would assume the fanless PSU manufactures had some info on this, but i havent found any yet.

I would also still like some pointers on watercooled PSU's, as overall i think that it would be a neat solution.

peteamer:
I have considered swapping fans, but im not sure how easy it is with my current PSU( i have done it before on another PSU though) the original fans ones are set up with some automatic speed controls, so im not sure how easy it is to connect new ones. Having a completely fanless system is also a goal in itself for me.

slipknottin · Post by **slipknottin** » Sun May 15, 2005 11:08 am

http://www.quietpc.com/uk/watercooling.php#wcpsu

ddrueding1 · Post by **ddrueding1** » Sun May 15, 2005 11:10 am

Fanless PSUs require a system with good airflow (ie: Fans). It's stupid, but quite true. Fanless PSUs really aren't fanless, they just make you buy and install your own elsewhere.

If you wanted to run a Phantom fanlessly, the only way you might be able to is to mount some waterblocks to the outside of the PSU to evacuate the heat.

I think that as long as the main heat-outputting things are watercooled (cpu, graphics card, maybe your nb and harddisks, maybe even your mosfets), that it wont have any problem.

Quite incorrect. The PSU is the second or third hottest component in your system (depending on your video card). Keep in mind that even with the most efficient power supplies out there the PSU is putting out 20%+ of the heat, and is one of the parts that needs to be kept the coolest (behind the HDDs).

Running a system completely fanlessly is not a very good idea. Keep in mind that EVERY component that electricity is flowing through is generating heat in the process. Most of these aren't a big deal, but many are. The ones that would certainly need direct cooling are:

CPU
GPU
HDD
PSU
NB
SB (if you have one)
VRM
MOFSETS

And with no airflow through the case, who knows what other chips would fry? RAM? Onboard RAID controllers? Not worth it IMO when suspened Nexus 120s @ 5v are so cheap and so quiet.

nici · Post by **nici** » Sun May 15, 2005 11:17 am

OK, i have a reserator cooling my CPU, GPU and Chipset, and a Phantom. The only fan is a 120mm Nexus at 650rpm pulling air out the back. I like the DFI mobo beacause it reports chipset and mosfet temps, mosfets 57c and chipset 41c. Nothing to worry about there, the mosfets should easily manage 57c. The Phantom stays cool to the touch even though im foldin 24/7 so its 100% cpu usage. I cant hear the nexus, the enclosed samsung HDD is noisier, as is the reserator(soon to be correted)

ziphnor · Post by **ziphnor** » Sun May 15, 2005 1:07 pm

nici:
Thanks for the input, sounds encouraging. But i thought the Phantom included a 'backup' fan, and from a review here i gathered that it turned on a little too easily?

I never had any noise problems from my watercooling pump/radiator since its located on the other side of the wall

I can tell you a standard 1000W radiator can dissipate quite alot of heat(of course not 1000W, thats when the input water is 60C, but still ALOT

and its not very expensive.

slipknottin:
Thanks for the link. I had already noticed that 450W, but i was kind of hoping for something a little higher. I might upgrade my system not too far in the future, and i dont want to spend alot of money on a PSU that cant handle a SLI system. And yes i know a SLI system uses less than 400W, but there is also the matter how much energy it is able to yield for each voltage etc, 18 A on 12V isnt alot. My current PSU is rated as in :
http://www.antec.com/specs/true480_spe.html, 28A on the 12V. I dont want to downgrade my PSU.

ddrueding1 wrote: Running a system completely fanlessly is not a very good idea. Keep in mind that EVERY component that electricity is flowing through is generating heat in the process. Most of these aren't a big deal, but many are. The ones that would certainly need direct cooling are:

CPU
GPU
HDD
PSU
NB
SB (if you have one)
VRM
MOFSETS

And with no airflow through the case, who knows what other chips would fry? RAM? Onboard RAID controllers? Not worth it IMO when suspened Nexus 120s @ 5v are so cheap and so quiet.

I do realize that all electric components generate heat, and I suppose if the case was airtight it would certainly be a problem, but i was kind of hoping that normal air drift due to temperature would be enough. But you make a good point, i hadnt really considered that the fact that the PSU fans are actually cooling the rest of my system right now. I wonder if using 1-2 120mm pabst fans @5v with a fanless PSU would be a good idea and give enough airflow? It would be much easier to prevent vibration noise from case fans as compared to the fans in the PSU. Its still a bit sad though, i have an annoyingly good ear for fan noise as well as low frequency vibrations and it drives me crazy(harddrive noise however doesnt bother me at all)

I dont suppose the true480 PSU could easily be modded to run fanlessly in conjunction with 2x120mm case fans by swapping its casing for something with a lot of holes in it?

But still i see quietpc.com(as per link given by slipknottin) suggesting a fully watercooled pc with no fans, so maybe it isnt as bad as all that?

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Sun May 15, 2005 2:33 pm

well i have a a64 754 socket 3000+ chip, gig ram, 1 Nidec Samsung HD, AIWonder 9800 pro vid card, with a 350 phantom and a Reserator on the cpu and gpu. the northbridge is a zalman heatsink, the blue longer one. really, I just changed this because it has more mass and looks nicer in the dark blue zalman colour motif.

in this antec 3700 BQE case, you need one exhaust fan with sometype of rubber barrier for vibration to make a silent or near silent setup. its really really really quiet.... if the reserator makes noise, use the same pump and replace it.... that eheim is a great pump and is (well mine is) insanely quiet.

if watercooling, and your northbridge isnt hot, you can really do wonders with the phantom.

StarfishChris · Post by **StarfishChris** » Sun May 15, 2005 3:22 pm

I remember people putting their Phantoms outside of the case and letting convection do the work. I think it's possible (and seemed to work without problems?) but I still worry about the VRM and MOSFETs and such on the motherboard, as well as hard drives unless you get a block for those.

The Phantom 500 has the fan. The older 350 doesn't.

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Sun May 15, 2005 3:48 pm

StarfishChris wrote:I remember people putting their Phantoms outside of the case and letting convection do the work. I think it's possible (and seemed to work without problems?) but I still worry about the VRM and MOSFETs and such on the motherboard, as well as hard drives unless you get a block for those.

The Phantom 500 has the fan. The older 350 doesn't.

yeah, its the 350 which i recommend. any spcr savy person can make one of these work in a performance minded system if you are willing to setup the case and fans properly.

the Antec Phantom 350 gets hot because of system heat, not because of load.
half-life2 on high settings for a few hours straight showed me that.

Slaugh · Post by **Slaugh** » Sun May 15, 2005 4:15 pm

StarfishChris wrote:I remember people putting their Phantoms outside of the case and letting convection do the work. I think it's possible (and seemed to work without problems?) but I still worry about the VRM and MOSFETs and such on the motherboard, as well as hard drives unless you get a block for those.

The Phantom 500 has the fan. The older 350 doesn't.

Yes, I have a Phantom PSU 350W (without the backup fan) which I installed outside the case, so there's no heat dumped inside the case. The entire system is cooled with a Reserator but I decided to put a Nexus 120mm just in case (running at 700RPM actually and inaudible, thanks to the fanmate2!

)

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Sun May 15, 2005 8:06 pm

Slaugh wrote:
StarfishChris wrote:I remember people putting their Phantoms outside of the case and letting convection do the work. I think it's possible (and seemed to work without problems?) but I still worry about the VRM and MOSFETs and such on the motherboard, as well as hard drives unless you get a block for those.

The Phantom 500 has the fan. The older 350 doesn't.
Yes, I have a Phantom PSU 350W (without the backup fan) which I installed outside the case, so there's no heat dumped inside the case. The entire system is cooled with a Reserator but I decided to put a Nexus 120mm just in case (running at 700RPM actually and inaudible, thanks to the fanmate2! )

perfect setup. this plus a antec 3700 bqe or similar series is perfection with reserator, phantom 350, zalman northbridge sink and a nex 120 undervolted....

sux that it costs so much!

ziphnor · Post by **ziphnor** » Sun May 15, 2005 11:45 pm

A fanless PSU outside the case sounds like a good idea, however a 350W PSU isnt enough. I dont like to be limited by the PSU as to what i can put in my computer, and since the PSU is also a rather boring component i would prefer buying one that is 'future proof' so i dont have to worry about that for a while. I was looking at the Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe FAQ, and saw some pretty hefty requirements for running in SLI:
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/38623/

I suppose its silly to even ask if such powerful fanless PSU's exist?

Still, i dont understand why watercooled PSU's cant be more powerful, watercooling is much better than aircooling, so i would suspect it would be easier to make a powerful PSU that was watercooled.

Btw, i see the ATX 2.0 PSU's have dual 12V lines, each usually not rated too high. For example the 500W phantom has dual has 17A/17A while my current PSU has 28A. I need the PSU to work in my current system which doesnt have an ATX 2.0 motherboard, as well as in an upgraded system later on. I guess in the old system i would only be able to use one of the lines, and im not sure a single 18A line is enough?

ATWindsor · Post by **ATWindsor** » Mon May 16, 2005 12:02 am

ddrueding1 wrote: The ones that would certainly need direct cooling are:

CPU
GPU
HDD
PSU
NB
SB (if you have one)
VRM
MOFSETS

And with no airflow through the case, who knows what other chips would fry? RAM? Onboard RAID controllers? Not worth it IMO when suspened Nexus 120s @ 5v are so cheap and so quiet.

You sure about this? I would recon you easily could skip the last 4 from your list. All those would do nicely without a case fan I would guess, I have run several cases with only a PSU-fan, and they are ok, when you just have your mobo in free air, with no fans, it works fine too. My experience is that they can handle a suprising amount of heat, and passive cooling will bring you a long way in a non-overclocking situation.

AtW

uni1313 · Post by **uni1313** » Mon May 16, 2005 4:36 am

ziphnor wrote:A fanless PSU outside the case sounds like a good idea, however a 350W PSU isnt enough. I dont like to be limited by the PSU as to what i can put in my computer, and since the PSU is also a rather boring component i would prefer buying one that is 'future proof' so i dont have to worry about that for a while. I was looking at the Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe FAQ, and saw some pretty hefty requirements for running in SLI:
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/38623/

I suppose its silly to even ask if such powerful fanless PSU's exist?

www.yesico.de
Yesico makes the following types of PSU's:
350 Watt, 420 Watt, 480 Watt and 520 Watt. Some of these are equiped with TMS:
YESICO present a second generation of the TMS (Thermo Management System). Now it supports the adjustable temperature line for starting a cooling system. In the front panel of the unit there is a rotary knob for manually adjusting temperature inside the PSU. Enthusiasts can rotate the knob to preset the PSU temperature at any desirable value ranged from 42 to 62 degree C. When temperature detected by the TMS reaches the prescribed value, the backup fans in computer case start up to actively pull heat out, while when temperature drops below the designated value, the fans shall stop. The TMS feature creates a maximum possible silent environment at the condition the computer runs safely and securely.The new YESICO power supply is a high quality power supply of the latest fanless generation. All components were devoloped and optimized for no-noise fanless operation.

jamesavery22 · Post by **jamesavery22** » Mon May 16, 2005 11:01 am

ATWindsor wrote:
ddrueding1 wrote: The ones that would certainly need direct cooling are:

CPU
GPU
HDD
PSU
NB
SB (if you have one)
VRM
MOFSETS

And with no airflow through the case, who knows what other chips would fry? RAM? Onboard RAID controllers? Not worth it IMO when suspened Nexus 120s @ 5v are so cheap and so quiet.
You sure about this? I would recon you easily could skip the last 4 from your list. All those would do nicely without a case fan I would guess, I have run several cases with only a PSU-fan, and they are ok, when you just have your mobo in free air, with no fans, it works fine too. My experience is that they can handle a suprising amount of heat, and passive cooling will bring you a long way in a non-overclocking situation.

AtW

Well the bottom two can be combined, dont think there are any big mosfets on any board that aren't VRMs... My MN31N looks like it has one by the AGP, never read the # but whatever it is, it is always cool to the touch.

SB? Yeah definitely can be taken off the list. Even if you put it in a vacuum it'd probably be ok.

NB is subjective. nforce2? yes needs more than passive cooling. 865? no. nforce4? yes. And are you OCing? Undervolting? 875s can be overvolted when OCing and they get very hot. Same with nf4s. Dunno about underclocking though.

HDD is also subjective. If you have a 15k scsi drive then yeah obviously. There are examples on this forum of people sealing up a HD in foam with no airflow at all. So for those HDs no you dont need to worry about them. namely any 2.5" hdd, they are made to be completely enclosed in plastic with no airflow.

Only other one that could be argued is the GPU. Depends on the card. with no OCing my 9600xt is completely passive. No fans on it, no exhaust fans. Just crammed into a matx case. Peak power consumption of that thing is 23watts. GPUs tend to have a pretty high heat tolerance too. So with a large passive heatsink (like the old slot P3 one I used) it can be passive with no airflow at all.
But if you have a 6800u that consumes 70watts then goodluck.

ziphnor · Post by **ziphnor** » Mon May 16, 2005 12:14 pm

jamesavery22:
My motherboard is based on nforce2 and i simply removed the fan on the NB, and i never experienced any problems whatsoever, even though i only have a PSU fan(GPU(GF4600)+CPU is watercooled as i mentioned earlier). My FSB is not oc'ed though im just running my Barton 2500+@11x200Mhz = 3200+.

uni1313:
Thank you very much for that link. I see that even the 550W model 'only' have 18A/16A 12V lines, but perhaps thats the new trend having 2 moderately powerful 12V which can simultaneously run at full power? Dont know how my current setup would react to that.

ATWindsor · Post by **ATWindsor** » Mon May 16, 2005 2:18 pm

jamesavery22 wrote:NB is subjective. nforce2? yes needs more than passive cooling. 865? no. nforce4? yes. And are you OCing? Undervolting? 875s can be overvolted when OCing and they get very hot. Same with nf4s. Dunno about underclocking though.

Aren't there several nforce-chipsets with passivly cooled NBs as stock? (asus an others).

AtW

pony-tail · Post by **pony-tail** » Mon May 16, 2005 8:26 pm

I have run a Zero fan system !
It is a BAD idea .
some ventilation is necessary or component life is shortened .
I found that a 5v 80mm fan in the rear to exhaust the hot stale air is sufficient
but your CPU power circuitry is designed to have airflow . As are many other components - unless you have a very open case keep at least one fan .
A semi passive antec psu sounds to me to be a very interesting proposition.
worth a thought any way

ATWindsor · Post by **ATWindsor** » Tue May 17, 2005 12:25 am

pony-tail wrote:I have run a Zero fan system !
It is a BAD idea .
some ventilation is necessary or component life is shortened .
I found that a 5v 80mm fan in the rear to exhaust the hot stale air is sufficient
but your CPU power circuitry is designed to have airflow . As are many other components - unless you have a very open case keep at least one fan .
A semi passive antec psu sounds to me to be a very interesting proposition.
worth a thought any way

Can you elaborate why you think it's a bad idea? (I see your point about component life, but is this specualation from you? Most components live shorter in a hot enviroment, but is the diffrence 20 years cool, and 15 years hot, or something that matters?) Even without fans there is a airflow in a case.

AtW

jamesavery22 · Post by **jamesavery22** » Tue May 17, 2005 11:19 am

ziphnor wrote:jamesavery22:
My motherboard is based on nforce2 and i simply removed the fan on the NB, and i never experienced any problems whatsoever, even though i only have a PSU fan(GPU(GF4600)+CPU is watercooled as i mentioned earlier). My FSB is not oc'ed though im just running my Barton 2500+@11x200Mhz = 3200+.
...

ATWindsor wrote: Aren't there several nforce-chipsets with passivly cooled NBs as stock? (asus an others).

AtW

Yeah there are plenty of nf2 boards that only have a heatsink with no fan on the NB, but it still needs decent airflow. They all expect the CPU fan to move air over them.

I tried to watercool my mn31n with that blue zalman on the NB and it heated up real quick, even with a 60mm fan exhausting an inch away, be it very quiet and slow/weak fan. Im talking like 55c+ while my proc was at 35c.

Maybe my mn31n nf2 chipset just runs hot. But a lot of others have mentioned this over at ocforums.com. nf2 chipsets just pull more power in general. It pops up a lot when people ask "should I water cool my nb?" Seen a bunch of times people saying "yes if you have an nf2." And Ive recommended that because of my mn31n needed it.

So when I said "passive" I meant little to no airflow. A SB doesnt need airflow, depending on what CPU/mobo you have VRMs dont need airflow sometimes, but an NF2 definitely needs some.

mathias · Post by **mathias** » Tue May 17, 2005 8:02 pm

If these northbridges require at least a northbridge heatsink with decent airflow, why not simply use something more than a northbridge heatsink? Like a cut to fit zalman 6000AlCu, or a small heatpipe tower? As for the mosfets, (and the southbridge, if that had heat problems) why not just compensate by attaching heatsinks?

ddrueding1 · Post by **ddrueding1** » Wed May 18, 2005 9:34 am

For the record, NB chips can typically handle 90C temps forever, so it's not that much of a problem, but all my W/C plans have included a waterblock for the NB anyway.

Uberapan · Post by **Uberapan** » Wed May 18, 2005 10:40 am

I ran totally fanless for a few months, using a reserator. I had some problems with the system hanging about every two to three weeks (it was on constantly). Also, you couldn't play 3d games, because something on the video card would overheat (probably the memory, even though they had huge heatsinks on them).

I added a Zalman 92mm over the video card at the minimum speed with a fan-mate fan just to get some airflow over the memory chips, and all instability went away. In short, it's certainly possible, if you don't mind the occasional instability and/or don't have a very powerful video card. This is with a Radeon 9800 Pro and a Northwood 3.2 ghz P4. This is with a SilenX (yes, yes...) 460W fanless psu.

ATWindsor · Post by **ATWindsor** » Wed May 18, 2005 1:04 pm

Uberapan wrote:I ran totally fanless for a few months, using a reserator. I had some problems with the system hanging about every two to three weeks (it was on constantly). Also, you couldn't play 3d games, because something on the video card would overheat (probably the memory, even though they had huge heatsinks on them).

I added a Zalman 92mm over the video card at the minimum speed with a fan-mate fan just to get some airflow over the memory chips, and all instability went away. In short, it's certainly possible, if you don't mind the occasional instability and/or don't have a very powerful video card. This is with a Radeon 9800 Pro and a Northwood 3.2 ghz P4. This is with a SilenX (yes, yes...) 460W fanless psu.

The GPU-cooler om the resirator supposedly is very weak, maybe the extra cooling on the core itself helped?

AtW

Slaugh · Post by **Slaugh** » Wed May 18, 2005 6:52 pm

ATWindsor wrote:The GPU-cooler om the resirator supposedly is very weak, maybe the extra cooling on the core itself helped?

I have a Reserator and I use both waterblocks. My video card is a Radeon X800XT PE and it never reaches 60°C at full load. After playing games like Far Cry or HL2 for a few hours, the video card is usually under 50°C and the CPU (Athlon64 3400+) is also under 50°C. OK, I also use an undervolted Nexus 120mm fan for safety, but turning off this fan doesn't increase temperatures that much. All in all, the cooling capability of the Reserator is pretty good! Right now, the CPU temperature is 32°C and the GPU temperature is 36°C!

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Wed May 18, 2005 11:46 pm

Slaugh wrote:
ATWindsor wrote:The GPU-cooler om the resirator supposedly is very weak, maybe the extra cooling on the core itself helped?
I have a Reserator and I use both waterblocks. My video card is a Radeon X800XT PE and it never reaches 60°C at full load. After playing games like Far Cry or HL2 for a few hours, the video card is usually under 50°C and the CPU (Athlon64 3400+) is also under 50°C. OK, I also use an undervolted Nexus 120mm fan for safety, but turning off this fan doesn't increase temperatures that much. All in all, the cooling capability of the Reserator is pretty good! Right now, the CPU temperature is 32°C and the GPU temperature is 36°C!

i agree concur etc with your findings... the gpu is fine and dandy with the lil aluminum block on it. apparently, water cooling is 10x more efficient than air cooling so I guess it doesnt matter about the mass or complexity of the block. still, i wish it would havea heavy copper base like the CPU does. I think the gpu works so well because it follows the number one principal in water cooling, rate of flow through the heatsink. always the most important factor, and this gpu cooler is a straight smooth hole from one end to the other.

ziphnor · Post by **ziphnor** » Thu May 19, 2005 12:21 am

As i mentioned earlier, my (huge) radiator is situated outside. Back in winter, i had CPU temperatures at full load that was ~25C. When running on normal load the temperature dropped below room temperature.

Last summer however, my temperatures would rise to 40C because the sun was shining on the place where my radiator is

Anyway, im fully confident that my current watercooling does not need airflow over the CPU and GPU, im more worried about the other bits of the system.

ATWindsor · Post by **ATWindsor** » Thu May 19, 2005 12:50 am

~El~Jefe~ wrote: I think the gpu works so well because it follows the number one principal in water cooling, rate of flow through the heatsink. always the most important factor, and this gpu cooler is a straight smooth hole from one end to the other.

That dosn't make sense too me, water can hold a lot of energy, even with a relativly low flow-rate the temprature change will be very small (a degree or two), thus the diffrence in heat-transfer very small, the surface of water to sink-contact seems much more important. (the flow through a sink is the same as the flow in the entire system btw)

AtW