Antec NeoHE "High-Efficiency"

PSUs: The source of DC power for all components in the PC & often a big noise source.

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allenlux
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Post by allenlux » Thu Dec 29, 2005 8:57 am

allenlux wrote:I think I will try to return the PSU. Even if it works with some other motherboards, this seems to me unacceptable.
Does anybody know if Antec's European customer service team is working this week? When I sent a message on Tuesday (27 December) asking for an RMA, they opened a ticket, but I've not heard from them since, despite sending a reminder yesterday.

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Post by allenlux » Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:45 am

I still haven't heard anything back from Antec, so I re-contacted Overclockers.co.uk, who sold me the P150 case with this PSU.

This was their message this morning:
We expect to receive converters for the PSU's shortly which will enable the power supply to be used with the Asus motherboards. As soon as these converters are received by us we can send one out to you.
Does this make sense? I've not yet seen a clear explanation of the problem with the Antec Neo HE PSUs when used with Asus motherboards, but nothing that I've read so far would indicate that the problem could be solved with a "converter".

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Post by Rory Buszka » Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:52 pm

To avoid a Cyber-SLAPP, I've removed the content of this post.
Last edited by Rory Buszka on Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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allenlux
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Post by allenlux » Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:25 am

Rory Buszka wrote:Just return that case.
So far I haven't succeeded in getting an RMA either from Antec or from the retailer.

As far as Antec are concerned, I hope the delay is just because of the holidays. In the past, I've been impressed by the willingness of Antec employees to participate in this and other forums, and I expect the company will sort this out. I just wish they would hurry up.
Last edited by allenlux on Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by klankymen » Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:27 am

I've also been waiting 3 weeks for my RMA now, i hope also its the holidays....
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allenlux
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Post by allenlux » Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:12 pm

This is the reply I just received from Antec Customer Service:
First we would like to apologize for the non-prompt response.

It is our understanding that Asus A7N8X motherboards is AMD K7 based, and does not comply with the ATX12V v2.x design guide (because it predates it considerably). So this will not work properly with the Neo HE even though the power supply is backwards compatible to ATX12V v2.01.

Our return policy works in a manner that we will replace a defective item with the same exact model.
If I read this right, they are basically saying that I bought an inappropriate power supply, and there is nothing more to be done about it. The implication is that the "fixed" Neo HEs will still not work with my motherboard.

This may be correct, but it's not exactly an incentive to buy Antec PSUs in future, since other makes seem not to have this issue.
Last edited by allenlux on Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

spolitta
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Post by spolitta » Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:17 pm

Our return policy works in a manner that we will replace a defective item with the same exact model.

go to h--- antec.

MOD WARNING - profanity will not be tolerated.

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Post by MikeC » Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:24 pm

allenlux wrote:This is the reply I just received from Antec Customer Service:
First we would like to apologize for the non-prompt response.

It is our understanding that Asus A7N8X motherboards is AMD K7 based, and does not comply with the ATX12V v2.x design guide (because it predates it considerably). So this will not work properly with the Neo HE even though the power supply is backwards compatible to ATX12V v2.01.

Our return policy works in a manner that we will replace a defective item with the same exact model.
If I read this right, they are basically saying that I bought an inappropriate power supply, and there is nothing more to be done about it. The implication is that the "fixed" Neo HEs will still not work with my motherboard.

This may be correct, but it's not exactly an incentive to buy Antec PSUs in future, since other makes seem not to have this issue.
Actually, it may be that very few of the ATX12V v2.01 (and later) PSUs will work for you. The reason is that your board draws considerable power from the 5V line for the CPU. The available power on the 5V and 3.3V lines is much less than it used to be on the older spec PSUs. Just have a read through the appropriate section in the PSU fundamentals article. Your motherboard should work with any v1.3 PSU, however.
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Post by MikeC » Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:30 pm

spolitta wrote:
Our return policy works in a manner that we will replace a defective item with the same exact model.
go to h--- antec.
This is not cool. AFAIK, All PC component makers have the same policy! Consider this a language warning.
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spolitta
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Post by spolitta » Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:55 pm

MikeC wrote:
spolitta wrote:
Our return policy works in a manner that we will replace a defective item with the same exact model.
go to h--- antec.
AFAIK, All PC component makers have the same policy!
of course they do, but others also will stand behind their out of box all defective items. Looks like antec has collected enough money from us by selling overpriced cases (p180) that they will no longer care about their customers. I will never recommend antec to anyone.

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Post by allenlux » Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:58 pm

MikeC wrote: Actually, it may be that very few of the ATX12V v2.01 (and later) PSUs will work for you. The reason is that your board draws considerable power from the 5V line for the CPU. The available power on the 5V and 3.3V lines is much less than it used to be on the older spec PSUs. Just have a read through the appropriate section in the PSU fundamentals article. Your motherboard should work with any v1.3 PSU, however.
Mike,

This is an interesting point which I think goes to the heart of the problems we are having with the Neo HEs.

I looked at the 2.01 guide on http://www.formfactors.org and I see on page 13ff for "typical" PSU power distributions, on the +5v line:

250W 18A
300W 20A
350W 21A
400W 28A

However, the Neo HE 430W has on the +5V line only 14A maximum. So it seems quite far away from the "typical" values in the ATX 2.01 guide. Certainly other mainstream new PSUs have much higher ratings on the +5V line. On the other hand, your very interesting article on power distributions within 6 PCs showed that the 6 tested systems drew no more than 3.0A on the +5V line.

The ATX design guides don't impose any minimum output power level for the +5V line, so Antec may simply have decided to go for a much lower value than other PSU manufacturers. This decision is not unreasonable, but it has caused a lot of angst for people who read on the Antec website that the Neo HE is "backwards compatible", when it's now evident that it interprets the 2.01 guide very differently from other mainstream PSU manufacturers.

John

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Post by MikeC » Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:19 pm

Actully, our review had a factual error:

We reported that the NeoHE is ATX12V v2.01 compliant. However, checking Antec's site now, I seed that it is listed as v2.2 compliant -- and backward compatible with v2.01. I don't know whether we made an error -- or whether this info was changed since we posted the review.

The v2.01 (June 2004) guide's max current for 5V that allenlux quotes are quite different from the v2.2 (March 2005) guide numbers:

------- v2.01 v2.2
250W 18A 12A
300W 20A 12A
350W 21A 12A
400W 28A 14A
450W ---- 14A

There have been vast changes in power distribution guidelines across the 12V vs 5V & 3.3V lines since v1.3 of the ATX12V spec. There is no question that some of the newest v2.2 PSUs will simply not work with older boards created when v1.3 (or earlier) was current. The reverse is also true -- some new motherboards (when equipped with high power CPU/VGA etc) will not work with older v1.3 PSU.

This may be part of the issue for some people -- those with older motherboards & CPUs -- but most of the misbehavior I've heard about seem to be on current K8 and 775/478 boards.
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Post by MikeC » Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:45 pm

spolitta wrote:
MikeC wrote:
spolitta wrote: go to h--- antec.
AFAIK, All PC component makers have the same policy!
of course they do, but others also will stand behind their out of box all defective items. Looks like antec has collected enough money from us by selling overpriced cases (p180) that they will no longer care about their customers. I will never recommend antec to anyone.
Antec is saying this is not a defect, they're saying we never claimed it would work with a mobo that needs a v1.3 PSU. I tend to agree with them technically, especially if they know this is normal behavior for all NeoHE PSUs.

But for desperately needed goodwill in their mess right now, it would have been wise for Antec to offer a swap for another PSU that would work with the older board/CPU.
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Post by nici » Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:03 pm

I swapped my parts from the P180 to the P150 tonight, and the Neo seems to work. Been folding for a couple of hours now.

DFI nF4 Ultra-D
3500+ Winchester
2x512Mb RAM
X800GTO@575/530(400/500)
WD Raptor74
Maxtor MaxlineIII 250Gb
LG DVD-RW

And as for noise im very positively surprised, its damn quiet and smooth.


EDIT: Oopsie, i thought this was the users poll thread. Oh well.. :roll: Ill go post in the correct thread now.

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Post by sanse » Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:09 am

allenlux wrote:This is an interesting point which I think goes to the heart of the problems we are having with the Neo HEs.
my rig is built upon an asus a8n-sli premium rev. 1.02 board running bios 1011.001.

does anyone know to which atx-standard this board applies?

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Post by MikeC » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:19 am

sanse wrote:
allenlux wrote:This is an interesting point which I think goes to the heart of the problems we are having with the Neo HEs.
my rig is built upon an asus a8n-sli premium rev. 1.02 board running bios 1011.001.

does anyone know to which atx-standard this board applies?
It's current -- v2.01 & later. Anything SLI is the same.
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Post by Hellspawn » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:32 am

MikeC wrote:
spolitta wrote:
MikeC wrote: AFAIK, All PC component makers have the same policy!
of course they do, but others also will stand behind their out of box all defective items. Looks like antec has collected enough money from us by selling overpriced cases (p180) that they will no longer care about their customers. I will never recommend antec to anyone.
Antec is saying this is not a defect, they're saying we never claimed it would work with a mobo that needs a v1.3 PSU. I tend to agree with them technically, especially if they know this is normal behavior for all NeoHE PSUs.

But for desperately needed goodwill in their mess right now, it would have been wise for Antec to offer a swap for another PSU that would work with the older board/CPU.
I suggested this exact thing in a strong way after I was shipped the 2nd one that would not power things up and was then told they thought they had an incompatibility somewhere.. But all they would say is that same quote "can only replace with a like item".

I thought it was a crock then to further inconvenience their customer(s) at the time and think even moreso now. What a major bad entry to the public of what could have been a great case/psu combo.

I think some others have the right idea, non-antec for power supplies for me for a while; they will have to produce a couple of models before I'll be back for a PSU. Besides my seasonic is pretty nice.

Oh BTW: p150 went back to Newegg last week too. No restocking fee :)

How liberating.

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Post by sanse » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:33 am

MikeC wrote:
sanse wrote: my rig is built upon an asus a8n-sli premium rev. 1.02 board running bios 1011.001.

does anyone know to which atx-standard this board applies?
It's current -- v2.01 & later. Anything SLI is the same.
thanks, Mike.

my system is currently running on a Seasonic powersupply with a rated +5V output of 30A. the NeoHE 430 powersupply as present in the P150 case has a rated +5V output of 14A.

is this enough for my motherboard?

i want this P150 case for it's silent potential (adding a ps-duct to it, isolating the fans, quiet ps, rubber hd-mounts, etc, etc.), but seeing these rating-figures the NeoHE powersupply will not work with my A8N-SLI Premium board.

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Post by sanse » Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:19 am

i just found in the manual of my asus a8n-sli premium board, that it expects a atx 12v v2.0 compliant powersupply.

so that probably won't and will never work with the antec neohe 430 atx 12 v2.2 compliant powersupply.

guess, that means no p150 for me. unless i am willing to ditch the neohe right away and replace it with a silentmaxx eg.

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Post by MikeC » Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:50 am

sanse wrote:i just found in the manual of my asus a8n-sli premium board, that it expects a atx 12v v2.0 compliant powersupply.

so that probably won't and will never work with the antec neohe 430 atx 12 v2.2 compliant powersupply.

guess, that means no p150 for me. unless i am willing to ditch the neohe right away and replace it with a silentmaxx eg.
Not so. V2 and V2.2 are similar enough. V2.01 had these changes from 2.0:

1) Updated 3.3 V remote sense pin # on the main power connector
2) Updated 12V2 DC Output Noise/Ripple information
3) Removed -5V reference
4) Updated 5Vsb maximum current step

The main changes in 2.2:
5) 5V standby current increased (from 2A/2.5A max/peak to 2.5A/3.5A)
6) 4.5.1 Added High Current Series wire terminals for ATX Main Power Connector
7) 4.5.2 Added High Current Series wire terminals for +12 V Power Connector

In any case, I am running a P150 system with one of those Asus a8n-sli premium boards and a revised NeoHE430 right now. Other components are 2x3800, nV6800GS, 200GB Samsung, 2x512mb RAM, optical, floppy, several fans. Have been doing so for several days; system is under long term stress testing/burn-in. ~190VAC peaks w/ 2Xcpuburn and 3Dmark05. No trouble of any kind so far.
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Post by sanse » Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:10 pm

MikeC wrote:Not so. V2 and V2.2 are similar enough. V2.01 had these changes from 2.0:
...
In any case, I am running a P150 system with one of those Asus a8n-sli premium boards and a revised NeoHE430 right now. Other components
that sounds encouraging!

i had contact with a supplier overhere in the netherlands today and he assured me, that the p150's he ships are from the latest version...

maybe i should give it a try, so i can finish this project.

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Post by aethyr » Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:36 pm

I just received my P150 tonight from Newegg. The warranty seal was also broken along the opening. It's pretty obvious that this was not "accidental" due to shipping (as was said in another thread), the box was in perfect condition and every item in the case was still secure and nothing showed signs of being jostled. The first thing I did was take some pics with my digital camera so I'd have proof it arrived like that.

I have no problem with Antec opening the case to fix the PSU (in fact, I hope they did), but it would have been nice if they resealed it. I assume Newegg wouldn't go opening items up like that, unless instructed by Antec to perform some kind of fix.

I will test it out with my Asrock motherboard when it arrives later this week. *Fingers crossed*

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Post by ddrueding1 » Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:04 pm

It seems pretty clear to me that a few people who tried to use this power supply with significantly older systems are giving this PS a bad name. As SPCRs own testing implies, any v2.0 or higher board should do just fine. Further, that the problems with this PS (if any) have been resolved and those that are experiencing problems are using it out of spec.

v2.0 came out in Febuary of 2003! Anyone building a new system (or even upgrading a relatively new system) should clearly not have any issues with this PS.


EDIT: Spelling
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Post by hravn » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:37 am

ddrueding1 wrote:It seems pretty clear to me that a few people who tried to use this power supply with significantly older systems are giving this PS a bad name. As SPCRs own testing implies, any v2.0 or higher board should do just fine. Further, that the problems with this PS (if any) have been resolved and those that are experiencing problems are using it out of spec.

v2.0 came out in Febuary of 2003! Anyone building a new system (or even upgrading a relatively new system) should clearly not have any issues with this PS.

EDIT: Spelling
Yes, the problems with NEW Neo HEs are probably resolved, but that doesn't change the fact that there still are lots of old Neo HEs in the channel.

I'd say that those that are experiencing problems are not using the PSU out of spec, rather they are using the old units without the fix.
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Post by nici » Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:05 am

Id like to know what this "fix" really is..

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Post by allenlux » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:44 am

ddrueding1 wrote:It seems pretty clear to me that a few people who tried to use this power supply with significantly older systems are giving this PS a bad name. As SPCRs own testing implies, any v2.0 or higher board should do just fine. Further, that the problems with this PS (if any) have been resolved and those that are experiencing problems are using it out of spec.

v2.0 came out in Febuary of 2003! Anyone building a new system (or even upgrading a relatively new system) should clearly not have any issues with this PS.
Out of spec?

According to the ATX design guides quoted above by me and by MikeC, the "typical" +5V maximum currents are:

----- v2.01 v2.2
250W 18A 12A
300W 20A 12A
350W 21A 12A
400W 28A 14A
450W ----- 14A

Let me ask 2 questions now:
- if I have a motherboard from 2003 which needs say 20A on the +5V line, is this motherboard compliant with ATX v2.01?

- if I have a PSU which delivers a maximum 14A on the +5V line, is this PSU compliant with ATX v2.01?

(I'm aware that these "typical" values are not mandatory and that we are not talking about compliance in a legal way, but in a common-sense way).

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Post by Cams » Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:47 am

How can I tell if my old Gigabyte motherboard is applicable with the NeoHE? It's a GA-8ITX, the specs of which are here:

http://tw.giga-byte.com/MotherBoard/Pro ... A-8ITX.htm

The specs list the following concerning the power supply:
ATX power connector, ATX 12V connector and 3.3V AUX power connector
Perhaps I should have thought about this before I ordered my P150 :cry:
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Post by MikeC » Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:22 am

3.3V AUX power connector
If this is necessary, then you're in trouble. The 6-pin 3.3V plugs disappeared after ATX12V v1.3. IE, v2 PSUs don't have them.
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Post by Devonavar » Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:10 am

allenlux wrote:Let me ask 2 questions now:
- if I have a motherboard from 2003 which needs say 20A on the +5V line, is this motherboard compliant with ATX v2.01?
Probably not.
allenlux wrote:- if I have a PSU which delivers a maximum 14A on the +5V line, is this PSU compliant with ATX v2.01?
Probably

BTW, for anyone posting here, the proper standard is ATX12V. ATX is something different (but related).

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Post by howardyu » Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:20 pm

Here I add some info, in addition that given in Neo HE Poll thread.

I ordered my two systems on Dec 20. When I ordred them, I was aware of the problem of Neo HE 430 with ASUS AMD cpu. But I did not find it has any problem with intel CPU. These sytems are basically the same
case P150
mb ASUS P5WD2 Premium
cpu intel 830 duao core
ram 2 kington 1gb
hd wd SATA WD2500JS (one system has two)
video ASUS Extreme AX300SE/TD
OD LG DVD+-RW GSA4163B
HS Scythe SCNJ-1000 Ninja heatsink

Yesterday the technician informed me that two Neo HE 430 will not boot system properly and he suspected the weak +5v line. After reading this thread, I checked ASUS mb manual and found that P5WD2 Premium needs:
*****
For a fully configured system, we recommend that you use a power supply unit (PSU) that complies with ATX 12 V Specification 2.0 (or later version) and provides a minumum power of 400 W.
*****
I checked other parts of manual and could not find any reference to +5V requirement. It did specify that +8A on +12V_1 and +13A on +12V_2 lead. So if Neo HE 430 is ATX 2.2 complied, it should power up ASUS P5WD2 Premium. BTW these two Neo HE have broken warranty stickers, indicating they might be updated or revised PS.

Today I order two seasonic 430 to replace Neo HE ones.

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