Seasonic Super Tornado 300: loudest component in system?

wumpus · Post by **wumpus** » Fri Oct 24, 2003 8:52 am

This is a little weird, so I'm soliciting input.

On my dual athlon server, in a sonata case, the Seasonic Super Tornado 300 is, by a pretty wide margin, the loudest fan in the system. Does that sound right to you guys?

If I stop the PSU fan with a twis-tie (hard to get a finger in there, plus, do I really want my finger next to a voltage source

), the massive whooshing noise goes away.

I have tried doing the finger stop test on both 120mm fans in the system (undervolted stealth 120mm in the drive rack ~750rpm, undervolted aluminum evercool 120mm in the back ~ 1100rpm) and it's clear that the noise is NOT coming from those sources.

The speeze falconROCK (er.. typo ;P) heatsinks on the CPUs are undervolted as well and don't significantly contribute to noise when the "finger stop test" is applied to them, either.

It doesn't appear to be the drives, either. I have the mcmaster rubber isolators on four samsung spinpoints (three 5400rpm 120gb, one 7200rpm 160gb) and they are idle 99% of the time anyway.

Does that "sound" right? The power load as measured by the kill-a-watt is ~150w with both CPUs folding. I just find it very weird that the Seasonic Tornado would be so loud.. I'd swear that the cheapo Fortron 120mm power supply in my HTPC (kill-a-watt shows ~100w load on that) is WAY quieter.

Legacy · Post by **Legacy** » Fri Oct 24, 2003 8:54 am

Check out my post.

wumpus · Post by **wumpus** » Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:23 am

I saw your post, but I wasn't sure it applied to me, because of this:

If you had any other dual-Athlon motherboard, those PSU's might have worked perfectly. But us Tiger MP users have fewer choices because the board only uses power from the 5V rail for the processors.

I have the MSI dual AMD mobo. But my Seasonic Tornado 300 is pretty dang loud-- Mk I. finger says "loudest fan in system, by far"-- so who knows?

Legacy · Post by **Legacy** » Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:35 am

Hmm...the Super Tornado Mike reviewed was quite quiet at 150W load. So it seems strange that yours is so loud. After reading the review and my own experience with the Super Tornado 300, as well as a number of negative posts on the boards, I was also wondering: is it really wise to do a review on a PSU provided by the PSU's manufacturer who knows you're going to be reviewing it and is very directly affected by the results of the review? While the PSU Mike reviewed may have come off the line just like all other Super Tornados, who's to say that Seasonic didn't hand pick it from a batch of PSUs because that particular unit was the best performer? If you were a company with a product and had an opportunity to send your product for an in-depth review that could help make or break it in the marketplace, would you just grab any one off the line and send it without checking it to make sure it was okay?

wumpus · Post by **wumpus** » Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:45 am

My Seasonic also has the "sometimes fails to spin up from power off" problem about 20% of the time, so yeah, between that and the noise, it's been a real disappointment.

The kill-a-watt does confirm that this power supply is more efficient than my old one, though..

wumpus · Post by **wumpus** » Sat Oct 25, 2003 12:42 pm

One note. I chose not to connect the 4-plug alternate power connector on my MSI dual-amd mobo. Would that affect the "percieved" load to the power supply? The system is running fine--power supply fan noise notwithstanding-- but I may try plugging it in just for kicks.

Mujja · Post by **Mujja** » Sat Oct 25, 2003 12:58 pm

I've got the SS-300FT. Its the same as the FB but only has a 2 pin fan, so no rpm monitoringh. I didn't realise this until I opened up the PSU to connect the fan to a fan controller. This explains an earlier post of mine where i was confused why my fan was funning at full speed all the time, when most other people's fans weren't spinng at all.

The 120mm fan is definately loud, even at half speed. I've got it turned right down. As there is no rpm readout I can't say what speed its running at. Mike Cs review and the fact this PSU is top of the table in terms of silence is what made me buy it.

Even at the lowest fan speed the PSU does stay nice and cool and only get slightly warm. So it's still better than the other hot ones I used to have.

josephclemente · Post by **josephclemente** » Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:45 pm

I have two 300W Seasonic Super Tornado PSUs. They seem to work different (one I got in early October, the other a few days ago.)

The one from early October had a sticker on the outside plastic wrapper stating that the fan may stop and is perfectly normal (semi-fanless operation as advertised). On powerup, it is not unusual for it to be off. When spinning, RPM is about 600-700.

With the other PSU, the fan starts every time. This PSU did not have any sticker on the outside packaging like above. Also, RPM is always around 900 - I've never seen the other PSU reach that speed.

I haven't had any problems at all with either PSU - no strange noises and they are both rock-solid. The first one is slightly more desirable from a noise perspective.

No whooshing from mine - my PSU requirements are much lower, though(one 2.53GHz CPU, CDRW/DVD combo drive, 7200 RPM HD, Radeon 9600 Pro, one CPU fan and one case fan.)

Post by **MikeC** » Sat Oct 25, 2003 4:39 pm

Much of this has already been discussed in the long thread "Less than pleased with Seasonic Tornado (second revision)". There are now so many S.Tornado threads here it's getting ridiculous.

Please NO MORE! Or I'll just consolidate all these into just a couple.

Anyway, basic rules about quiet thermal fan control PSUs:

1) They can stay quiet as long as power draw stays below a certain threshold.

2) That threshold is determined by the manufacturer on the basis of --
- efficiency (high efficiency allows higher power threshold point)
- intrinsic cooling capacity of HS & fan & PSU case
- degree of willingness by mfg to risk overheating

3) Once the PSU power draw approaches 50% of rated power, I know of NO stock power supply that keeps the fan spinning at min. Doing that would be asking for trouble, for thermal overload.

4) If the ST or any PSU with a similar thermal fan control curve spins its fan up high, it basically means you are pushing it past that fan-speed-up threshold with high power draw or high temp or both.

These two post about power/temp/fan speed experiments with my S.T.-based system spells out more details.

http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewto ... ght=#47487

http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewto ... ght=#47622

wumpus · Post by **wumpus** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 10:58 pm

OK, well, this Seasonic Super Tornado 300 is driving me nuts. I measured the power draw at 152w from the wall with the kill-a-watt, dual athlon XP bartons at 100% load. Factoring in efficiency of 78% or whatever, the PS is running at 119w.

I'm kind of shocked and appalled that the SST 300 feels it needs to spin the fan THIS fast for such a relatively modest load. It is by FAR the loudest fan in the system. I mean, Mk. I twis-tie fan stop test says 2nd loudest fan in the system isn't even remotely as noisy, and I have two cpu fans, and two 120mm fans in there.

Any tips or hints on things I can do to get this SST 300 fan to slow down? It's a vornado in there!

Oh, as for temps. Case temp is from 30-35c, depending on ambient. Right now it's 30c.

wumpus · Post by **wumpus** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 11:16 pm

I've got the SS-300FT. Its the same as the FB but only has a 2 pin fan, so no rpm monitoringh. I didn't realise this until I opened up the PSU to connect the fan to a fan controller. This explains an earlier post of mine where i was confused why my fan was funning at full speed all the time, when most other people's fans weren't spinng at all.

Hmm. Shutting down folding, which instantly drops the power load by at least 40w (from the wall-- say, 112w -> 152w ), makes a dramatic difference in fan noise. It goes from nice and quiet, to pretty darn noisy ("dell noisy").

I guess that's consistent with MikeC's results here:
http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewto ... ght=#47622

Whatever the reason, it still sucks, because there's IMO just no way a ~120w load ( wall * 0.78 ) on a 300w power supply should justify that kind of increase in fan noise/speed. It's nowhere near its limits, the temps aren't high, and the power supply isn't even getting warm! At least a temperature-based speed would be more justifiable in my mind-- this is a linear ramp in fan speed purely based on voltage load, even if I happened to be using this case outside in the middle of winter. That's just.. stupid.

So I guess the question remains: what can I do about this? replace the Seasonic Tornado 300 fan with a constant voltage one? rewire the existing fan?

wumpus · Post by **wumpus** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 12:57 am

OK, I couldn't take it any more, and I replaced the Seasonic Super Tornado 300 with a Fortron FSP350-60PN.

MASSIVE improvement. The adjustability of the FSP350 makes all the difference. I keep the pot jammed all the way to the (-) side for lowest fan speeds, and it is truly quiet in a way that I could only dream about with the SST-300-- even under full dual-processor load.

Note that with the potentiometer moved up even 20% from full (-), the Fortron becomes as noisy as the SST-300 was. I haven't detected any fan speed swings based on load so far, but I just put it in. The full load condition is what I was worried about-- the SST-300 seems to scale fan speed to load independently of temperature, which never made any sense to me.

This is the second Fortron 120mm I've purchased (the non-adjustable 300w was the other one), and I've been exceedingly pleased with both in terms of low noise.

I'll gladly trade a little efficiency for a big increase in peace and quiet.

HammerSandwich · Post by **HammerSandwich** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 6:09 pm

Wumpus, how would you compare the 2 Fortrons? Is the non-adjustable similar to the lowest fan speed on the adjustable?

wumpus · Post by **wumpus** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 7:30 pm

The only experience I have with the non-adjustable Fortron 300w 120mm model is in my HTPC-- well, it used to be in my HTPC. I swapped it with the SST-300 today. It's a long story, but the way that PS mounts in the case, the fan is "upside down" which helps with the well-documented Seasonic Tornado fan spin up problem, so it was the best place for it IMO.

Anyway, the HTPC draws ~100w at the wall, and I can't hear any difference between the SST-300 and the FSP300 in the exact same system. I'd rate both "excellent" for noise. Considering the FSP300 costs 1/3 what the SST-300 does, quite the bargain!

I can't predict what the FSP300 will sound like under a heavy load, though.

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:14 pm

wumpus wrote:OK, I couldn't take it any more, and I replaced the Seasonic Super Tornado 300 with a Fortron FSP350-60PN.

MASSIVE improvement. The adjustability of the FSP350 makes all the difference. I keep the pot jammed all the way to the (-) side for lowest fan speeds, and it is truly quiet in a way that I could only dream about with the SST-300-- even under full dual-processor load.

Note that with the potentiometer moved up even 20% from full (-), the Fortron becomes as noisy as the SST-300 was. I haven't detected any fan speed swings based on load so far, but I just put it in. The full load condition is what I was worried about-- the SST-300 seems to scale fan speed to load independently of temperature, which never made any sense to me.

This is the second Fortron 120mm I've purchased (the non-adjustable 300w was the other one), and I've been exceedingly pleased with both in terms of low noise.

I'll gladly trade a little efficiency for a big increase in peace and quiet.

Does the speed of the Fortron fan change with temperatures?

How about the effectiveness at the lowest fan setting relative to keeping itself cool? Any idea how many RPM's at lowest setting?

No ticking?

nutball · Post by **nutball** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:51 am

wumpus wrote:Any tips or hints on things I can do to get this SST 300 fan to slow down? It's a vornado in there!

I opened mine up and a) reversed the fan so it's sucking cold air in through the back, and b) unscrewed the temperature sensor from the heatsink. This latter mod probably means the thing will overheat, but I haven't detected any obvious sign of this yet. If it means it dies in a year or two and I have to buy a new PSU, so be it.

Nice and quiet now

Inexplicable · Post by **Inexplicable** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 9:59 am

nutball -- Your thermistor was screwed to the heat sink? Mine's not. It's nestled between the transformer coil, a large capacitor, and two mosfets, but touching none of these. The PSU is as loud as wumpus's, so I would guess reversing the fan is what made the difference for you.

EDIT: Having reversed the fan, what happened to your case/cpu/hdd temps? What's your fan configuration? I would think it changes the air flow paths inside the case quite a bit.

nutball · Post by **nutball** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 6:26 am

Inexplicable wrote:nutball -- Your thermistor was screwed to the heat sink? Mine's not. It's nestled between the transformer coil, a large capacitor, and two mosfets, but touching none of these. The PSU is as loud as wumpus's, so I would guess reversing the fan is what made the difference for you.

Yes, it was. Note I've got the OEM version of this PSU, so maybe that's different from yours? I don't know.

I took a photo while I had the beasty open, if I get time I'll post it when I get home from work.

In fact: if you look at pictures from the review here, on this page, you can see the sensor I'm referring to. Fourth photo down the page, screwed to the heatsink just behind the green capacitor.

It all seemed a bit strange to me. The short time delay between a load increase and the fan speeding up made me wonder if the fan was temperature controlled at all. I thought maybe it was monitoring load instead. But I found the little sensor, complete with thermal grease stuff, and unscrewed/moved it away from the heatsink, and now it hardly varies in speed at all.

Another thing I did notice was that the fan in my PSU is only a 2-wire jobbie, so this PSU will have no way of monitoring fan speed. The retail version in the review quite clearly has a 3-wire fan. This might explan the different behaviour between the review unit and those we have. Just a guess.

Had I been more in the mood for experimentation I'd have reversed the fan first, to see what effect that had, then tried the trick with the thermistor. I wasn't inclined to keep removing and refitting the PSU though, it's a lot of hassle, I just want this thing to work!

EDIT: Having reversed the fan, what happened to your case/cpu/hdd temps? What's your fan configuration? I would think it changes the air flow paths inside the case quite a bit.

My case runs hot, I don't think there's any denying that, but, and here's the important bit, not noticeably hotter with the PSU fan blowing in than it was blowing out. The air coming out of the PSU will now basically end up flowing across the CPU heatsink.

EDIT: HD temps are about 35C, motherboard temperature about 25C, CPU at 45C socket, 55-60C diode. These numbers are under load after an hour or so. At idle the HD's are high-20's, motherboard 25C, CPU socket high-30's, CPU diode high-40's.

2 x 120mm fans (one blowing in from the front, one blowing out from the back, both at the low end of the range of the Zalman Fan-mate controller). Heatsink is a Thermalright SLK900, 92mm fan (also running pretty much as slow as possible). CPU is Barton 2500.

I've recently bought a new HD which I've suspended in a 5.25" bay, so I'm hoping I can remove the 3.5" drive cage completely and improve the flow a bit. Case is an Antec 3700 thingy.

Inexplicable · Post by **Inexplicable** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 8:13 am

nutball wrote:In fact: if you look at pictures from the review here, on this page, you can see the sensor I'm referring to. Fourth photo down the page, screwed to the heatsink just behind the green capacitor.

Hmm, could be a case of mis-identification for me, then. I didn't realize there is a thermistor under that metal cap. But what's that thing in the central section of the psu, between the transformer, the big capacitor, and the heat sink on the right? Looks a lot like a thermistor.

Hmm, maybe I'll give the Super Tornado one more chance...

nutball · Post by **nutball** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 8:35 am

Not sure what that is.