Suspending the Raptor

Silencing hard drives, optical drives and other storage devices

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Joe DeFuria
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Suspending the Raptor

Post by Joe DeFuria » Thu Feb 12, 2004 7:28 am

OK, here's my fist stab as suspending the Raptor 74 Gig in the ARM Stealth (Evercase 4252) Case:

Image

The top hard drive is just a "dummy" at the moment. There will be a Samsung Spinpoint (160 gig, SATA) in it's place. I am anticipating that the standard grommeted mount of the Samsung will be more the sufficient for that drive, and only suspending one drive like this provides a nice open air-flow path between them.

Unfortunately, I can't test the Spinpoint at this time...because I had to RMA it. I'm embarrassed to say that the cause for the RMA is completely my fault, but that's another story. :)

Just FYI, the parts I'll be using for the Raptor Suspension (from McMaster Carr):

Part No 8858T261: Black bungee/shock cord

Part No 8876T35: Black nylon loop strap.

The main difference from this particular set-up from the other one's I've seen, is that I've used the "underneath" mounting holes (rather than the side) on the hard drive to mount the loop straps. Instead of running the cord underneath the drive, I'm running it along side it. This provides a little more clearance underneath the drive, and possibly a bit better unimpeded airflow over the bottom.

I will however, be changing the mounts to the side of the drive however. If you notice, mounting it as shown moves the hard drive "forward" in the case in order to keep in balanced and level. While it doesn't touch the front of the case, there is not enough room to mount a fan if I so desire.

I do plan on keeping the cord running along the side of the drive, rather than underneath it though.

The results?

There is complete vibration decoupling. I can touch the top hard drive and drive cage and there is absolutely no vibration. Seeks are a little more muted when suspended vs mounting with grommets, but still clearly audible (with the case closed).

Temperatures at idle are identical (about 41 c) with grommeted mounting.

Now, I'd like to do some "load testing" using several mounting methods. Does anyone have any suggestions for how to run a "consistent" load test for the drive?

I will test the following mounting methods, for subjective noise and temperature measured through SMART:

1) Standard, to the metal, drive mounting
2) Mounting with EAR Grommets provided by ARM Stealth
3) Shock cord suspension
4) NoVibes3 mounted in 5 1/4" bay.

Jan Kivar
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Re: Suspending the Raptor

Post by Jan Kivar » Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:04 am

Joe DeFuria wrote:Now, I'd like to do some "load testing" using several mounting methods. Does anyone have any suggestions for how to run a "consistent" load test for the drive?
Well, if it works, IBM/Hitachi Drive Feature Tool. Use "Show Drive Temperature" from the Features-menu. There is a test mode, which will make the drive seek constantly, while showing the current temp. Of course, SATA could be a problem...

You could also test the effect of AAM for each mounting, again provided that SATA works.

Cheers,

Jan

PretzelB
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Post by PretzelB » Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:05 am

Cool setup. I got the red bungee from McMaster Carr and white loops from Lowe's but I like the black look better. I can't use this in my Chenbro case so this will have to wait until my next case.

I assume you don't do lan games or move the pc a lot. Without anything to brace the drive against it's free to crash around. Your airflow is better than the original setup of this bungee method but that freedom comes at the price of "moving parts" in your case.

Have you tried HDTach for hard drive testing? I used it once to figure out a problem with my 200gb hard drive. During testing it would do a quick span of the drive to test the speed. This was the most volume I've ever had from my hard drive. It wasn't long but it was constant. It might help your testing.

Joe DeFuria
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Re: Suspending the Raptor

Post by Joe DeFuria » Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:25 am

Jan Kivar wrote:Well, if it works, IBM/Hitachi Drive Feature Tool. Use "Show Drive Temperature" from the Features-menu. There is a test mode, which will make the drive seek constantly, while showing the current temp. Of course, SATA could be a problem...
Thanks, I'll give it a shot!
You could also test the effect of AAM for each mounting, again provided that SATA works.
Will try that too.
PretzelB wrote: assume you don't do lan games or move the pc a lot. Without anything to brace the drive against it's free to crash around. Your airflow is better than the original setup of this bungee method but that freedom comes at the price of "moving parts" in your case.
You assume correctly, and yes, that is the trade-off!
Have you tried HDTach for hard drive testing?
I'll give that a shot too. :) I took a look at the home page, and they indicate that the trial version does not perform write tests, only read tests. Do you recall if you were testing with writes?

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Post by Joe DeFuria » Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:33 am

Interstingly, I found a page over at xbitlabs that has some links to some performance measurement tools:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/storag ... tor_3.html

They also just recently took a look at HDTach 2.7...

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/storag ... ch-27.html

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Re: Suspending the Raptor

Post by PretzelB » Thu Feb 12, 2004 11:11 am

Have you tried HDTach for hard drive testing?
I'll give that a shot too. :) I took a look at the home page, and they indicate that the trial version does not perform write tests, only read tests. Do you recall if you were testing with writes?
I didn't buy hdtach so I must have been doing the read test. It seemed to make the hd generate a lot of noise but I'm sure there are better tools.

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Post by Joe DeFuria » Fri Feb 13, 2004 5:18 pm

So, here's the latest update after several hours of testing 8 different configurations:

1) Standard , metal to metal mount
3) Standard mount using EAR Grommets
5) NoVibes3 in 5 1/4" drive bay
7) Modified shock cord suspension.

2,4,6,8.) Repeat above, but with AAM enabled.

My original goal was to get a good handle on performance, sound, as well as temperature. However, in order to be satisifed with temperature analysis, I'm going to have to spend more time, than just a 10-15 min test. So I can give you a "general" look at temperature at this time, but that's about it.

I modified the shock cord suspension to be a bit more standard:

Image

It's much more "stable" this way, but the main difference is that it provides room for the front case fan.

The benchmark program I decided to use is called h2benchw (zip file is here), which I found by looking at StorageReview's FAQ. It's described as:
StorageReview wrote:Probably the best freely available hard drive benchmark is German c't magazine's h2benchw, which they use themselves when reviewing hard drives. It measures the interface and physical transfer rates, access time, includes some application patterns and can do data integrity testing.
Now, for the most accurate testing, this requires an empty, unpartitioned disk to do write testing (And I will be doing this perhaps later tonight with a couple configurations.) Since my first round of tests is really for noise analysis, I decided to skip the writing aspect for now.

This is a command line test, and I ran it with these parameters:

2benchw.exe 0 -english -c 0 -s -p -w test

This runs 3 of 4 groups of tests. I omitted one test because that particular one (sustained read transfer) took an additional 18 minutes by itself, and it didn't make any "noise". (So who cares? ;))

On my system each test run (all three tests) takes about 10 minutes.

During the test, I could generally hear two distinct types of "seek" noise. One was higher pitched, and one was lower pitched. At one particular point in the test, the combination of seek noises was particularly loud. If you want to try this yourself, that portion of the test is when the screen reads:

"Measuring Access Time (whole disk)
reading..."

This occurs about 30 seconds into the test, and it lasts for about 30 seconds. The first 15 seconds of this test is the loudest part. (I'll henceforth refer to this as the "f'n loud part" :)). Then there's about 15 seconds or "normal seek" noises before the screen updates for the next test.

General noise results:

Up front, I'd like to say there is no appreciable "idle whine" from the raptor. It's there if you put your ear up next to it, but inaudible over the case fans.

1) Direct metal-to-metal mounting, AAM disabled. There is a muted hum eminating from the case, and you can feel some vibration in certain places of the case panels. It's a faint hum, but it's there. Seek noise is in general sharp and pronounced. It's not hollow and there's no residual resonance, just sharp, pronounced seek noise. The f'n lound part is....F'N LOUD! Sounds like a truck rumbling through the case. Low frequencey "thuds" combined with the normal seek noises.
I'd hate to hear the raptor direct mounted to an aluminum case without padding...must sound like absolute hell.

2) Direct metal-to-metal mounting, AAM Enabled. Doesn't seem to make a difference. Sounds just as loud to me.

3) Direct mounting with Ear Grommets, AAM Disabled The grommets succeeded in eliminating the hum, and I can only feel a "faint" case vibration on certain parts of the side panels at idle. Normal seek noises are subdued quite a bit...but while the f'n loud test isn't quite as obnoxious, as metal to metal, but it's still what I would consider "real loud".

4) Direct mounting with Ear Grommets, AAM Enabled No major difference from number three.

5) NoVibes3 suspension in 5 1/4" bay, AAM Disabled.

Image

Up to this point, I was feeling quite uneasy about my Raptor purchase. That "f'n loud" seeking section was very irritating. Of course, one would expect improvement with a suspension, but I was pretty floored by the order of magnitude difference the NoVibes suspension made with the "f'n loud" seek. It was practically gone. I don't mean inaudible..but now it sounded almost no different than the "normal seeks", which have also been significantly reduced in volmume and sharpness. Seeks in general are still clearly audible ouside the case, but they are muted and dull. I have to have my ear within inches of the case in order to tell the difference between the "f'n loud" seek, and the normal seeks.

This is the first time I said "now, THAT'S acceptable!" :D

6) NoVibes3 suspension in 5 1/4" bay, AAM Enabled. To boot, this is the first time I believed I heard an additional improvement in sound with AAM enabled.

7) Shock Cord suspension underneath drive cage, AAM Disabled. There is now absolutley no difference bewteen the "f'n loud" and "normal" seeks. The normal seeks sound the same or might be a touch louder compared to the NoVibes suspension. The fact that the drive is closer to the bezel opening in the case is likely causing a little more noise to escape.

8.) Shock Cord suspension underneath drive cage, AAM Enabled. Again, I believe I can hear an improvement in the seeks with AAM Enabled. Not drastic, but an improvement.

General Performance. In general, I'd say enabling AAM decreasing performance about 3%. The "App index" scores I was getting with AAM Enabled were in the high 23's. The App Index scores with AAM disabled were in the low 24s.

I didn't see any significant performance difference across different mounting methods. For a more definitive look at performance, I will run these tests in write enabled mode. (I'll have to reinstall WinXP on another hard drive, and blank out the Raptor.)

General Temperature Can't really comment too much, since I really haven't run one configuration long enough to get stable temp readings. As expected, temps were generally higher when suspended (and highest in the 5 1/4" bay). I'll get better temp detail when I do the performance testing.

I also hope to get some WAV files recorded for you, so you can get an idea of the differences I'm talking about.

Morals of the story:
* I don't think anyone here would be happy with the Raptor in any type of direct mounting situation.

* If you are willing to suspend the drive in some way, the Raptor becomes "very acceptable" IMO. I am satisfied with the current noise levels, without resorting to a drive enclosure.

* If you want close to absolute silence, you won't get it from the Raptor...with the possible exception of a drive enclosure.

As a final note, keep in mind that the ARM Stealth case is steel construction, has acoustipac lining, and generally good airflow. You milage may vary with other cases....

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Post by halcyon » Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:59 am

Very detailed information, Joe. Thanks!

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Post by Trip » Sat Feb 14, 2004 2:20 am

dag, I was hoping you would enclose it... 8.4Watts of HDD heat isn't easy to tame is it?

It'll be interesting to see what temp.s you are getting. This is a really good write up, thanks!

Actually, the Samsung SP1614N may run hotter and can be cooled by a 2002C enclosure.

Enclosures do seem to reduce seek noises...

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Post by Joe DeFuria » Sat Feb 14, 2004 3:53 am

I might yet enclose it....

Not because the currnet noise bothers me, but because I'd probably feel more comfortable with it enclosed sitting at the bottom of the case, than with it just "hanging around."

I'm trying to think of ways to keep it suspended at the bottom of the case, yet secure.

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Post by PretzelB » Sat Feb 14, 2004 7:59 am

Joe DeFuria wrote:I might yet enclose it....

Not because the currnet noise bothers me, but because I'd probably feel more comfortable with it enclosed sitting at the bottom of the case, than with it just "hanging around."

I'm trying to think of ways to keep it suspended at the bottom of the case, yet secure.
Couldn't you make some kind of bumper between the two drives to push the bottom one down and then tighten the tension in the cord? Maybe a long strip of sturdy packing material or even a piece of wood with some shock absorbing material on either side. If it was thin, the air could still travel around the drives.

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Post by Jan Kivar » Sat Feb 14, 2004 11:01 am

WOW! Thanks for the detailed acoustical analysis.

Hopefully WD releases a 36 GB version of this new Raptor. 74 GB is a bit too much for a system drive (ATM :roll:).

What do You consider as a "normal" seek? As in, how loud?

I'd like to see temp data as well, and the enclosure idea sounds interesting. Hopefully You have enough idle time on your hands...

Cheers,

Jan

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Post by Trip » Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:44 pm

Joe or anyone, do you think the raptor runs cooler* than the Samsung SP1614N? and if so, is there any reason, that you can think of, that it couldn't be enclosed in an enclosure made for a 7200RPM drive since the SP1614N does fine in them?

*what I think is heat output is linked to in my previous post

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Post by Ozkar » Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:52 pm

Has it been confirmed that WD will release a new version of the 36 GB Raptor? or is it just a wish?

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Post by Putz » Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:00 pm

First of all, if WD does release a smaller version of the new FDB-equipped 74-GB Raptor, it should be 37 GB, not 36, so you can distiguish it that way when purchasing.

Secondly, no confirmation that I've heard of. Nobody at StorageReview.com has mentioned it, AFAIK, and they'd be close to the first to know when it happens.

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Post by Joe DeFuria » Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:20 pm

I have all the temperature data to post some results...but It's my turn to put the kids to bed tonight. ;) So it won't be until later tonight or tomorrow before I can post my findings.

As for it running cooler / hotter than the samsung SP1614N ...I'll have that drive back from RMA hopefully in a week, so I'll be able to show both temps.

However, there are some little holes on the Raptor that say (IIRC, case is closed at the moment) "vent hole...do not cover".

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Post by Joe DeFuria » Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:36 pm

OK, here's some temperature results.

My machine had 2 hard drives mounted in it for testing, since I will be installing the Spinpoint once I get it. For this test, I had WinXP loaded onto an older hard drive I had laying around (Western Digital 7200 RPM UDMA/66), mounted in the lower hard drive bay upside down, as in this configuration seen from the StealthPC review:

Image

I mounted the unpartitioned raptor in one of three locations:

1) Directly above the system drive, as in the above picture using the EAR Grommets.
2) Mounted via NoVibes3, in the "next to lowest" 5 1/4" drive bay
3) Suspended from shock cord, as shown in a previous picture in a previous post above.

To "load" the hard drive, I ran the same h2benchw program with 3 of the 4 tests as I noted in a previous post, except I added the -! command line option, which forces the write tests in addition to the standard read tests. (Don't run with the write option on your own drive unless it's empty or don't care about the data on it!)

Each benchmark run takes about 10 minutes. So I ran the bechmark 3 times in succession for a total of about 30 minutes of constant work for my "load test". In between test runs (and after changing fan configurations), I would let the system idle and reach a steady state temperature.

Temperatures were read by immediately launching SpeedFan after launching the final benchmark run, and noting temperatures.

To be honest, I'm not sure where the "Case" sensor on the motherboard is...I'll have to check. (Usually, it's somewhere near the northbridge.) The two hard drive temperatures were read via SMART with SpeedFan.

Following are the most interesting data points to me....all these data points had AAM disabled, with the stock ARM Systems case fans in the front and rear. The Zalman 7000 Heatsink fan was on minimum fan-mate setting throughout the tests. The case fans' maximum RPMs are each about 1200, minimum speed is about 500, and I tested a "medium" speed of about 900, which is about the loudest I'd like the rear fan to be.

One last note...my cable management is nonexistent at this point, so internal air-flow is non-optimal. There is no load on the CPU other than what the drive benchmark puts on it.

Cases 1-3 are all with both drives mounted in the standard bay with EAR Grommets

Case 1 - Grommets: Rear fan at minimum, Front fan off

Code: Select all

              IDLE     LOAD
Raptor         48       48
Old Drive      43       48
Case           38       43
CPU            40       40
Surprisingly, the raptor didn't take on any extra heat when loaded...but the old drive did. Without much air-flow in the case, the old hard drive (which was just idling throughout all these tests) seemed to act as a heat sink. I'm guessing if I ran the tests a little longer, temps would go up further.

48 degress is too hot for my liking...No way that just running the low-airflow fan in the rear at 5V is going to keep everything cool on its own. This is expected of course, but it's a good reference point.

Case 2 - Grommets: Front and Rear fans both at minimum

Code: Select all

              IDLE     LOAD
Raptor         37       40
Old Drive      40       41
Case           36       40
CPU            32       38
So, you're looking at 7-10 degree improvement for throwing on the front fan at practically inaudible speed.

Case 3 - Grommets: Same as Case 2, but increasing the rear fan to 900 RPM

Code: Select all

              IDLE     LOAD
Raptor         36       37
Old Drive      38       38
Case           32       33
CPU            28       32
With this amount of air-flow, there's hardly any difference in drive temperatures when going from idle to load.

With cases 4 and 5, the Raptor was moved to the 5 1/4" bay, mounted with NoVibes:

Case 4 - NoVibes: Rear and Front fans both at minimum

Code: Select all

              IDLE     LOAD
Raptor         42       46
Old Drive      36       38
Case           36       40
CPU            32       38
A couple things to note:
* The old drive benefits from this configuration, as it has more room to breath without the raptor

* Compared to case 2, the Raptor is running 5-6 degrees hotter.

Case 5 - NoVibes: Rear fan at 900, and Front fan at minimum

Code: Select all

              IDLE     LOAD
Raptor         37       39
Old Drive      36       36
Case           34       35
CPU            28       32
This was actually better than I had anticipated. 39 Degress for the raptor under load is very acceptable. This is at the limit of fan speed though for me, with respect to noise. So while the option is viable, it's skating on thin ice.

Cases 6,7 and 8 are with the shock cord suspension:

Case 6 - ShockCord: Rear fan at 900, and Front fan off

Code: Select all

              IDLE     LOAD
Raptor         32       35
Old Drive      36       38
Case           32       38
CPU            26       32
Without the front fan, a respectable 3 degree or so increase in temps, and well under the 45 degree mark which is my upper limit.

Case 7 - ShockCord: Rear fan at 900, and Front fan at minimum

Code: Select all

              IDLE     LOAD
Raptor         30       31
Old Drive      36       36
Case           32       34
CPU            27       31
Very, Very tight. A testament to the great bezel design of the Evercase.

At this point I pretty much decided that I will be running with the front fan on at 5V. It just doesn't add any appreciable noise over the rear case fan, and the cooling benefits are dramatic. One last test:

Case 8 - ShockCord: Rear and Front fan both at minimum

Code: Select all

              IDLE     LOAD
Raptor         32       34
Old Drive      38       40
Case           36       38
CPU            32       38
About the same effectiveness as Case 6 (Rear fan at 900, front fan off), but much quieter.

The end result of all of this...I'm going to end up with the configuration that most have. ;) Front fan on at 5V or possibly not at all, and the Rear case fan somewhere probably around the 7V mark. I'll have at least one hard drive (the raptor) isloated from the case, at the bottom near the intake fan.

FYI....

At this very moment, my system is at the following: (Ambient temp of about 20 C):

Front Fan at 5V (450 RPM)
Rear Fan at ??V (700 RPM)
CPU fan at 5V
CPU is under load running Folding at home (single instance)
Only one hard drive (raptor) powered up, suspended with shock cord:

Case Temp: 37
CPU Temp: 44
Raptor Temp: 29

I have for the moment replaced the Rear ARM Stealth fan with the fan that came with my other 6A19 case. They seem to have similar air-flow characteristics, but the 6A19 case fan does not tick. Interestingly, while the FRONT Stealth fan also ticks, I cannot hear the ticking when mounted in the front.

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Post by harvester of sorrow » Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:03 pm

Lots of useful information, thanks a lot man!

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Post by Jan Kivar » Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:17 am

Thanks a lot Joe! Those bungee cord suspension temps look really good. 30°C is simply amazing. Too bad that one can't use bungee cords in some cases (like 3700BQE).

Cheers,

Jan

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Post by Joe DeFuria » Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:13 am

Jan Kivar wrote:Thanks a lot Joe! Those bungee cord suspension temps look really good. 30°C is simply amazing. Too bad that one can't use bungee cords in some cases (like 3700BQE).
The downside of the bungee is of course, "stability" (in terms of mounting). I'm looking into a new way to mount the drive in the same location, still decoupled, but with a more stable means. I have a plan, and should have the parts in about a week. ;)

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Post by Trip » Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:33 am

joe, do you think screwing through sorbothane with really long screws would work? Maybe with grommets on the other end as well.

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Post by Joe DeFuria » Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:07 am

Trip wrote:joe, do you think screwing through sorbothane with really long screws would work? Maybe with grommets on the other end as well.
I'm not sure exactly how your are proposing this...do you mean directly mounted to the hard drive cage, but using a hand-made "sorbothane" grommet, instead of the EAR grommets?

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Post by Trip » Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:44 pm

that or screwing through a larger piece of sorbothane in a 5.25 slot to really reduce vibrations. And then on the outside of the cage, add EAR grommets between the screw and the cage.

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Post by Bar81 » Sun Feb 22, 2004 3:33 am

Well, I really didn't think it could be done, but, wow, you can quiet the new Raptor :D

My method is a little different than suspension and is more "stable" in my mind for the HD. My Chieftech case has two removable HD cages and underneath each cage is a platform welded to the case itself. I don't use the lower cage so I threw one of the 3.5" vibration dampening pads from my Acoustipack v2 on the platform and then the Raptor on top of that. Completely silent now except for an extremely faint noise during seek (you really have to listen for it) The only downside is temps went up approx 7 degrees but are still well within acceptable limits in my case with front intake sealed and only Nexus 300W PS and one Papst 12dba exhaust fan.

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Post by Trip » Sun Feb 22, 2004 12:31 pm

Bar81, I'll bet your system really zips along too. Quiet and fast :|

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Post by Bar81 » Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:27 pm

I'm happy with it for the most part as it's completely silent save for a little whoosh from the exhaust fans. The only thing left is to wait for the Asus SiS Socket 754 board to get an Athlon 64 3200+ as the P4 2.8 I have right now isn't doing it for me. Well, on with the pics:

Image
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Image
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Image
Last edited by Bar81 on Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Fat Bunny » Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:39 pm

Have just suspended my 2 whiny early version 36Gb Raptors as per the article Step-by-Step: How to Quiet those Hard Drives at Overclockers.com. My first impression is that the "super" seek noise has disappeared but I may still be getting a little "Raptor Whine". I can't really subjectively say about the whine as my video card is annoyingly whiny now. Ugh... Must buy Arctic Cooling VGA Silencer.... Must buy Arctic Cooling VGA Silencer....:)

The seek noise from the Raptors in their elastic cage is much less noiceable than the WD drive in the mini-ATX desktop Comp*q that I sometimes use at work. My machine does sit in a floor level in a mini tower hutch however.

EDIT
Couple of notes about the construction linked to above:
1. You really need a wood shop with a table or mitre saw and a press drill to make the cage accurately. Mine looks decidely ghetto as I didn't use these tools.
2. As Raptors are slighltly taller than standard drives you way want to add half an inch to the vertical posts of the cage.

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Post by tbadiuk » Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:14 pm

Wow, only 8.4W for R&W with the new Raptors? Has anyone tried putting one in a SilentDrive Enclosure (from www.quietpc.com)? I've had no problems running the Seagate Barracuda's in them and the Barracuda's are supposed to disapate 10-12W or so at R&W.

Ted

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Post by slavicVII » Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:36 pm

Hello all. I currently have a WD1200JB as my system drive, enclosed in a SmartDrive 2002. It sits at the bottom of my Lian Li 6070, where the drive cage would usually go, right behind the two intake fans.

A SmartDrive 2002-enclosed SP1604N sits in a similar position, and reports temps of 37 degrees C under normal load.

What I'm wondering, whilst musing over this page

http://www.storagereview.com/php/benchm ... 4&devCnt=2

is whether if I get a 74GB Raptor:

a) Would I be able to put it in my SmartDrive 2002 (not C version) as the enclosure should get fairly good airflow from the front fans?

b) Could I then suspend the SmartDrive, with acceptable temps?

or

c) Is the idle noise of the Raptor quiet enough for it to be acceptable to suspend it and my SP1604N in the Lian Li drive cage?

Pretty difficult questions to answer I know, but I'd be very interested to hear what you guys think.

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