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carrot
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Where to buy Cephalexin

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Last edited by carrot on Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

m0002a
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Post by m0002a » Thu May 05, 2005 4:50 pm

Do you really expect anyone to know that off-hand? Try lighting it with a match. Just make sure you are not in a Rhode Island nightclub when you try that.

carrot
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Post by carrot » Thu May 05, 2005 5:06 pm

thanks.

i just figured since so many people bought it maybe somebody already tried it. that's cool.

m0002a
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Post by m0002a » Thu May 05, 2005 6:04 pm

From the Ashes
MIX Magazine, Professional Audio and Music Production
Aug 1, 2003

The [Feb 2003] fire at The Station nightclub in Rhode Island was the worst music-related disaster in New England in over 60 years. 100 people died, including one member of Great White, the heavy metal band performing that night, and nearly 200 more were injured.

<snip>

You've no doubt seen the astonishing video of the beginnings of the fire, which was shot by a local news station. The video clearly shows sparks from a set of pyrotechnic fountains, or “gerbs,” hitting the sound-deadening material on the walls and instantly transforming them into sheets of flame. The flames shot up the walls in such synchronization — it's easy to see how some patrons thought the fire was part of the show — and then raced down the low ceiling, away from the stage, engulfing the whole room with extremely toxic, dark smoke.

<snip>

One of the most serious of those decisions, and obviously a serious one for the owner of any facility — studio, performance space or rehearsal room — was the choice of acoustic foam. Put up in response to complaints by neighbors and insisted on by the local government before they would renew the club's license, the owners used, according to the Providence Journal, “the lowest grade, the cheapest stuff”: 2.5-inch-thick packing foam, with no flame-retardant characteristics. An independent forensic specialist determined that the foam's combustibility was equivalent to 13 gallons of gasoline. Buying safer foam, according to one local reporter, would have cost the club a whopping additional $600. (The foam's manufacturer is also named in the lawsuits.)

And that is, unfortunately, the same situation that many music facilities find themselves in: how to acoustically treat the walls of rooms in which sound is important without turning them into firetraps.

Nick Colleran is one of the industry's most well-informed voices on this subject. A former studio owner — he was one of the founders of Alpha Audio in Richmond, Va. — and one-time president of SPARS, Colleran has been in the acoustic-treatment business for almost 25 years: Alpha Audio, besides being a successful multiroom facility far larger than you'd think its market would support, was also for many years the American audio distributor of Sonex's line of acoustic foam. Today, he runs Acoustics First, which manufactures and distributes a wide variety of acoustical materials to the media-production market and to the building trades in general. After the Rhode Island fire, he fielded a barrage of calls from national and regional news services.

“As soon as I saw that video of the fire, I knew it couldn't be any kind of acoustic foam: It went up way too fast. They went and insisted on buying the cheapest foam they could find: packing foam. Bedding and packing foam are not supposed to be interior finish material.”

But even genuine acoustic foam comes in different fire-resistant grades. There are three grades — A, B and C (sometimes, confusingly enough, called I, II and III) — that specify how far a flame will spread over a material's surface in a set amount of time. “None of the stuff will burst into flame,” says Colleran. “But if a building is already burning, the grading will tell you how much this will contribute to the fire and perhaps make it worse.”

Polyurethane foam is the cheapest and, consequently, the most popular material for acoustic treatments. “The best urethane foam is only Class-C,” says Colleran. “A typical urethane foam will go out when you remove the flame. In a home studio, you can use it, as long as you don't use voluminous quantities and you have a way out. Generally, it's not illegal, but it can cause real problems if the house burns down.”

But flame retardation isn't the whole story. There's often an inverse relationship between flammability and the amount of smoke a material gives off. Colleran explains, “When you treat something for flame spread, it often increases the smoke output. The smoke is toxic; it's cyanide. You'll be dead before the flames reach you.” There are similar trade-offs when it comes to making materials water-resistant: “Some waterproofings are incredibly flammable,” he says.

Another factor is the type of building you work in. “Materials that will pass code on the floor may not pass on the wall. In a fire, they will get more oxygen on the wall, and even more if they're in a corner,” says Colleran. “If the studio is in a home or a single-story, single-use building, that's one thing, but if you're in a high-rise in the city, you have to worry about vertical updraft. Remember the old carpet on the walls at [Miami's] Criteria Studios? That would never pass code today.”

It's also important to recognize that sound-deadening and soundproofing are not the same, a distinction that may have been lost on The Stations' owners, who installed the foam largely in response to neighbors' complaints. (Ironically, the person who sold the foam to the club was one of those neighbors.) “We have people who want to put urethane foam into churches, day-care centers and nursing homes, and we won't sell it to them,” says Colleran. “Not only is it unsafe, but they think it's going to block sound, which is not what it does.

“Unfortunately, the materials that have the best fire ratings are often more costly to make. This is due to both raw material cost and the difficulty of molding a plastic that has a high melting temperature.”

Original article at http://mixonline.com/design/applications/audio_ashes/

mathias
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Post by mathias » Thu May 05, 2005 10:03 pm

m0002a wrote: Buying safer foam, according to one local reporter, would have cost the club a whopping additional $600.
That doesn't sound all that bad actually. Even if the packing foam cost two thirds of that, that's for a very large area, unless I'm mistaken.
m0002a wrote: (The foam's manufacturer is also named in the lawsuits.)
WTF?!? It's called Packing foam you idiots! It's not supposed to be used on walls.
m0002a wrote: But flame retardation isn't the whole story. There's often an inverse relationship between flammability and the amount of smoke a material gives off. Colleran explains, “When you treat something for flame spread, it often increases the smoke output. The smoke is toxic; it's cyanide. You'll be dead before the flames reach you.
Sounds like it's kind of pointless to make fire resistant foam, why not just put put a fire resistant layer over the foam instead?

m0002a
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Post by m0002a » Thu May 05, 2005 10:16 pm

mathias wrote:
m0002a wrote:(The foam's manufacturer is also named in the lawsuits.)
WTF?!? It's called Packing foam you idiots! It's not supposed to be used on walls.
Standard practice in the lawsuits is to sue anyone they can. Since the club is obviously bankrupt (and owners going to jail) they look for deep pockets.

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Re: resting HD on XP-120 packaging foam -- safe?

Post by tay » Thu May 05, 2005 10:38 pm

carrot wrote:I just bought an xp-120, gonna install it soon. hope it's worth it. I used the white foam material to rest my HD on, it fits perfectly in my case. Is that material safe? Will it catch on fire, or produce bad fumes due to heat?
No it wont catch fire or melt. I had 3 HDDs running on foam for 1.5 years in a case in a closet (vented).

m0002a
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Re: resting HD on XP-120 packaging foam -- safe?

Post by m0002a » Fri May 06, 2005 12:22 am

tay wrote:No it wont catch fire or melt. I had 3 HDDs running on foam for 1.5 years in a case in a closet (vented).
"Running on foam?" Which foam? Granted that a fire is not likely, but not all foam is the same. Not even close to the same. I don't now anything about the foam that came with my XP-120 (I can't tell by looking), but some foams will melt, and some can catch fire more easily than others. That is why foam is rated for fire and heat resistance.

If you read the above article, you will find out why 100 people died when "foam" ignited from some sparklers. The event was captured by a TV camera that was at the concert.

StarfishChris
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Post by StarfishChris » Fri May 06, 2005 4:40 am

No better place to ask this, then...

I found 3 large foam blocks - cushions for furniture, and fairly hard. They're about 10-15 years old and aren't wanted anymore. Would I be fine using these underneath my drives? I tried some spare melamine foam and it's too soft (using the same suspension method as m0002a).

tay
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Post by tay » Fri May 06, 2005 5:31 am

StarfishChris wrote:I found 3 large foam blocks - cushions for furniture, and fairly hard. They're about 10-15 years old and aren't wanted anymore.
I've used foam blocks that are used for heavy electronics packaging. Dell servers etc. I place this on the case floor lined with rebond foam.
m00002a wrote:If you read the above article, you will find out why 100 people died when "foam" ignited from some sparklers.
Hey a million+ people have died in road accidents. Doesnt mean we're all about to stop using roads. I hope I dont get sparks in my case. I've never had that happen yet and I'm not about to start now :).

Ideally we would all be using flame retardant foam along with CO2 cans/sprinklers in our PSUs but hey...

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Post by StarfishChris » Fri May 06, 2005 7:01 am

The least we can do is stick a smoke alarm at the back of the case... ;)

alleycat
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Post by alleycat » Fri May 06, 2005 7:57 am

If you're able to detach the drive bay from the case, you can sit that on the foam instead of putting the drive on it directly. Apart from not needing to worry about heat affecting the foam, this has the advantages of allowing air movement, providing a heatsink, and giving you an easy way to tie down the drive to prevent movement. The drive bay will not create any audible vibrations, provided it is not touching the case.

StarfishChris
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Post by StarfishChris » Fri May 06, 2005 8:42 am

I have a spare drive cage from an old case (I managed to save a 486DX + heatsink from it too, passive cooling 8)) so I might try and stick my two hard drives in there and suspend it with foam. (Stock Sonata drive trays have rubber grommets so no heatsinkability there.) That would be a lot safer... providing I have the room for it, of course - but I might be able to do a kind of Bluefront birdcage with cardboard separators.

m0002a
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Post by m0002a » Fri May 06, 2005 9:45 am

StarfishChris wrote:No better place to ask this, then...

I found 3 large foam blocks - cushions for furniture, and fairly hard. They're about 10-15 years old and aren't wanted anymore. Would I be fine using these underneath my drives? I tried some spare melamine foam and it's too soft (using the same suspension method as m0002a).
As you know, I used a high density foam designed for use as an electrical switch insulationg gasket, so it is fire and heat rated, and does an excellent job in the mounting system I used. I first tried softer foam, but it did not work as well.

Obviously, you don't have Home Depot in UK were I bought my foam, but don't they have anything similar to stop air leaks in light switches and electrical outlets?

If not, you might want to google a foam called Volara, which is a fine cell crosslinked polyethylene foam. The AFR and MF grades of Volara are fire-retardant. It also makes a very good sound barrier/absorber for a case.

m0002a
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Post by m0002a » Fri May 06, 2005 9:53 am

tay wrote:I've used foam blocks that are used for heavy electronics packaging. Dell servers etc. I place this on the case floor lined with rebond foam.
Yes, and I am sure there are thousands of other venues around the world that use the same (or similar) foam that was used in Rhode Island nightclub without anyone ever dying. Unfortunately, that doesn’t help the 100 people who died that night.
tay wrote:Hey a million+ people have died in road accidents. Doesnt mean we're all about to stop using roads. I hope I dont get sparks in my case. I've never had that happen yet and I'm not about to start now :).

Ideally we would all be using flame retardant foam along with CO2 cans/sprinklers in our PSUs but hey...
There are many kinds of foam, and they come with different fire retardant ratings. There is a reason why foam is rated that way, and no responsible manufacturer would use the wrong kind of foam near electrical circuits, even though the chances of a fire or other problem are statistically very small.

tay
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Post by tay » Fri May 06, 2005 10:08 am

m0002a wrote:There are many kinds of foam, and they come with different fire retardant ratings. There is a reason why foam is rated that way, and no responsible manufacturer would use the wrong kind of foam near electrical circuits, even though the chances of a fire or other problem are statistically very small.
The chances of a number of horrific things are statistically very small. Some people choose to not worry about them, others do. Thats life.

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Post by Bean » Fri May 06, 2005 10:08 am

Maybe wrap the foam in aluminum foil. If no oxygen gets to foam - no fire. I dont think it affect the sound much.

m0002a
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Post by m0002a » Fri May 06, 2005 10:12 am

Bean wrote:Maybe wrap the foam in aluminum foil. If no oxygen gets to foam - no fire. I dont think it affect the sound much.
You don't want anything that conducts electricity touching the underside of your hard drive. Most have exposed electrical circuits and you could short them out.

m0002a
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Post by m0002a » Fri May 06, 2005 10:15 am

tay wrote:The chances of a number of horrific things are statistically very small. Some people choose to not worry about them, others do. Thats life.
It is pretty easy to find foam that is fire retardant rated. But it is a little hard to just know by looking at it.

Bean
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Post by Bean » Fri May 06, 2005 10:27 am

m0002a wrote:
Bean wrote:Maybe wrap the foam in aluminum foil. If no oxygen gets to foam - no fire. I dont think it affect the sound much.
You don't want anything that conducts electricity touching the underside of your hard drive. Most have exposed electrical circuits and you could short them out.

:roll: Well Duh :D yah dont try this at home unless you know the risks! LOL. many ways to safegaurd like place it top side down on the foil. use drive cage idea stated a few posts up etc etc

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