I've noticed that a few people are using CF cards as their main/OS drive.
That would be ideal for a small server PC I have (Windows based), but I'm a bit weary of two things.
First is the page file. Do you disable it altogether and force a RamDisk? Or do you let it sit in the flash drive?
Second is longevity. Has anyone used this successfully for long(ish) periods - say 6+ months?
Your feedback would be greatly appreciated.
cheers
Share your experience(s) using Flash memory as system drive
Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee
Why force a RAM drive? The whole point of a swap file is a place to swap out something from RAM to fit something else into RAM. Putting in a RAM drive would just take away RAM, making you need to swap sooner, and then you are moving the contents of RAM around not accomplishing anything.
I have used flash parts that are rated from 100K to 1 million writes, so they certainly have a limited life span.
The only person that I know who has experimented with this was using LINUX, and I think that he used very lightweight desktop and kept his RAM usage down and had swap disabled.
I have used flash parts that are rated from 100K to 1 million writes, so they certainly have a limited life span.
The only person that I know who has experimented with this was using LINUX, and I think that he used very lightweight desktop and kept his RAM usage down and had swap disabled.
I have set up a server using a CF card rated at 32MB/sec read and 28MB/sec write.
First, it helps to use something like XPLite to reduce your install as much as possible, or just use Windows 2000. A good tip for reducing your install footprint is to make an integrated CD with all the updates pre-installed, or at least delete the uninstall info after you download them.
I got my install to 1.2GB, including basic apps like Firefox. Put it all on a 2GB flash card.
With 512MB or more of RAM, you can disable the page file. My system has 1GB. How much you need depends on what you do with the system. For file serving, 512 is fine but more gets you a bigger file cache. Generally, I disable the page file on all systems with 1.5GB or more of physical RAM anyway, even my main system which gets used for games etc.
Anyway, life expectancy should be fine, in the order of several years at least. Keep in mind that 100,000 write cycles is *per block*, so you get far more writes thanks to wear leveling. Considering the price of 2GB cards now, you could always just ghost your system every week and replace the thing when it dies.
First, it helps to use something like XPLite to reduce your install as much as possible, or just use Windows 2000. A good tip for reducing your install footprint is to make an integrated CD with all the updates pre-installed, or at least delete the uninstall info after you download them.
I got my install to 1.2GB, including basic apps like Firefox. Put it all on a 2GB flash card.
With 512MB or more of RAM, you can disable the page file. My system has 1GB. How much you need depends on what you do with the system. For file serving, 512 is fine but more gets you a bigger file cache. Generally, I disable the page file on all systems with 1.5GB or more of physical RAM anyway, even my main system which gets used for games etc.
Anyway, life expectancy should be fine, in the order of several years at least. Keep in mind that 100,000 write cycles is *per block*, so you get far more writes thanks to wear leveling. Considering the price of 2GB cards now, you could always just ghost your system every week and replace the thing when it dies.
CF uses the IDE protocol - so an IDE - CF adapter will show the card as a normal system drive for windows purposes.
I set up a win 2003 server on an 80X 2GB CF card, worked pretty well but after all the security updates it was out of space.
one big problem with IDE-CF is you should try to find an adapter that supports DMA.
speed-wise it was acceptable for my purposes - once windows loaded it was okay
considering that notebook HDD's use only a few watts - you'll get better performance and lots more space per $ than CF , although I still think a fully solid state computer would be fantastic!
I set up a win 2003 server on an 80X 2GB CF card, worked pretty well but after all the security updates it was out of space.
one big problem with IDE-CF is you should try to find an adapter that supports DMA.
speed-wise it was acceptable for my purposes - once windows loaded it was okay
considering that notebook HDD's use only a few watts - you'll get better performance and lots more space per $ than CF , although I still think a fully solid state computer would be fantastic!
Which models are you using?
After you mentioned the DMA issue I went to Newegg and sure enough there were users complaining that one of the CF-IDE adapters wasn't bootable. Although they advertise it as DMA compatible, it's only PIO compatible.
Other users also mention that on top of the CF-IDE adapter problem, only a small number of CF cards support DMA.
So it's not as simple as I thought.
Which model(s) are you using - both the adapter and the card?
Thanks
Other users also mention that on top of the CF-IDE adapter problem, only a small number of CF cards support DMA.
So it's not as simple as I thought.
Which model(s) are you using - both the adapter and the card?
Thanks
Re: Which models are you using?
Great memory card resource: CARDSPEED
The Memory Cards page has DMA information (only applies to CF and microdrive cards). Rob Galbraith's site has some good info, too (has a review of the SanDisk Ducati Edition cards).
The Memory Cards page has DMA information (only applies to CF and microdrive cards). Rob Galbraith's site has some good info, too (has a review of the SanDisk Ducati Edition cards).
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JohnAStebbins
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:02 pm
Hi,
I've been running a shuttle X100 for the last 10 months on an 8G PQI 100x CF and addonics SATA CF adapter. No problems with stability or I/O to report. I've been running Fedora linux (currently 7). I disable swap and I also disable access time date stamps on the filesystem. Primarily, I use the CF for the OS. Most other stuff resides on network drives.
But you MUST be careful in your selection of components. Some CF to ATA adapters do not support DMA or will not boot the CF for other reasons. Some CF cards do not support DMA even when their specs say they do. I had particular problems with a Transcend CF on another machine. I had to disable DMA for these to boot. My experience has been that you generally get what you pay for. The cheaper CF cards seem to exhibit more problems. Read customer reviews carefully. Usually you can find a few people complaining of I/O errors or missing/damaged pictures when used with cameras. Also different models from the same manufacturer will behave differently. For example, just because the 100x model works doesn't mean that the 120x model will work.
I've also experemented with booting from USB flash. Not so much luck with this approach. I don't know if it was a hardware or software problem, but it just wasn't stable over the long term.
John
I've been running a shuttle X100 for the last 10 months on an 8G PQI 100x CF and addonics SATA CF adapter. No problems with stability or I/O to report. I've been running Fedora linux (currently 7). I disable swap and I also disable access time date stamps on the filesystem. Primarily, I use the CF for the OS. Most other stuff resides on network drives.
But you MUST be careful in your selection of components. Some CF to ATA adapters do not support DMA or will not boot the CF for other reasons. Some CF cards do not support DMA even when their specs say they do. I had particular problems with a Transcend CF on another machine. I had to disable DMA for these to boot. My experience has been that you generally get what you pay for. The cheaper CF cards seem to exhibit more problems. Read customer reviews carefully. Usually you can find a few people complaining of I/O errors or missing/damaged pictures when used with cameras. Also different models from the same manufacturer will behave differently. For example, just because the 100x model works doesn't mean that the 120x model will work.
I've also experemented with booting from USB flash. Not so much luck with this approach. I don't know if it was a hardware or software problem, but it just wasn't stable over the long term.
John
My experiences: viewtopic.php?p=329946#329946
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JohnAStebbins
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:02 pm
jojo, what has your experience with long term stability been like? I see you were using Firestix-R.
I was using 8G Corsair Voyager GT on a system that received daily light duty work. About once a week, the flash drive would lock up solid and I would have to fsck to clean it up, resulting in lost files. I suspect the problem was with the Voyager GT, but I can't prove it. I have another system that boots and runs just fine on a CF plugged into a USB CF reader. But this second system gets far less daily use.
I'm still interested in this alternative because many of the new mobo's have 10 or 12 USB ports which makes a pretty nifty software raid. I've experemented with setting this up and aside from the reliability issue, works well.
John
I was using 8G Corsair Voyager GT on a system that received daily light duty work. About once a week, the flash drive would lock up solid and I would have to fsck to clean it up, resulting in lost files. I suspect the problem was with the Voyager GT, but I can't prove it. I have another system that boots and runs just fine on a CF plugged into a USB CF reader. But this second system gets far less daily use.
I'm still interested in this alternative because many of the new mobo's have 10 or 12 USB ports which makes a pretty nifty software raid. I've experemented with setting this up and aside from the reliability issue, works well.
John
all this uncertainty with IDE modes and compatibility is a big turn-off.
So for this build I'll just stick with a regular 2.5" drive - I have one in my main system and it's brilliant. No noise, low power/heat and no noticeable loss of performance.
At the moment the noise, heat and power savings over a regular 2.5" are outweighed by the hassle of ending up with incompatible parts.
Thanks for your contribution and great replies.
So for this build I'll just stick with a regular 2.5" drive - I have one in my main system and it's brilliant. No noise, low power/heat and no noticeable loss of performance.
At the moment the noise, heat and power savings over a regular 2.5" are outweighed by the hassle of ending up with incompatible parts.
Thanks for your contribution and great replies.
As long as your SATA or PATA controller supports RAID, then the drive's form factor has no bearing in the end result.
If it works with 3.5" hdds it works with 2.5" hdds.
I haven't tried RAID(ing) my 2.5" drives since the performance is good as it is - in a 1 drive scenario I don't notice any real difference to a 3.5" drive.
But my drives are always defragmented to allow for sequential reads/writes and I can't say that my (current) typical usage would benefit from having a "super-fast" hdd.
And as far as hdds go, "fast" is very subjective - in my opinion all current hdds are pretty slow - even the 15k which I have used until recently.
Regarding the noise, then definitely there is a difference. Even if they're not silent in notebooks, when placed inside a desktop case 2.5" are very quiet.
If it works with 3.5" hdds it works with 2.5" hdds.
I haven't tried RAID(ing) my 2.5" drives since the performance is good as it is - in a 1 drive scenario I don't notice any real difference to a 3.5" drive.
But my drives are always defragmented to allow for sequential reads/writes and I can't say that my (current) typical usage would benefit from having a "super-fast" hdd.
And as far as hdds go, "fast" is very subjective - in my opinion all current hdds are pretty slow - even the 15k which I have used until recently.
Regarding the noise, then definitely there is a difference. Even if they're not silent in notebooks, when placed inside a desktop case 2.5" are very quiet.
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matt_garman
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This probably won't be too helpful, but I have an OpenBSD box running off of a 1 GB compact flash card (by way of one of those Syba-brand IDE to CF adapters on newegg).
It's been well over a year, possibly approaching two years, and I haven't had a problem.
However, the box is only used as a firewall/gateway/router, and other than logging rarely writes to the CF "disk".
I don't know if this can be done with Windows, but most of the free Unix-like operating systems support net booting. That's another option: you have no hard drive in your system, and your computer boots from a network drive. Just another idea. I haven't done it, but want to play with it someday.
Matt
It's been well over a year, possibly approaching two years, and I haven't had a problem.
However, the box is only used as a firewall/gateway/router, and other than logging rarely writes to the CF "disk".
I don't know if this can be done with Windows, but most of the free Unix-like operating systems support net booting. That's another option: you have no hard drive in your system, and your computer boots from a network drive. Just another idea. I haven't done it, but want to play with it someday.
Matt
Here is some interesting info on how to evaluate the durability of flash drives:
http://www.storagesearch.com/ssdmyths-endurance.html
http://www.storagesearch.com/ssdmyths-endurance.html