Ok, I give up....
What's the "SHOCKER" ?
An inconsequential misprint on the number platter/head. but the bel rating is exactly what it should be.
Ummm....?
Samsung shocker!
Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee
Those two scenes from Airplane I and Airplane II where that woman goes hysterical come to mind... you know the ones.. first in the aeroplane (Airplane I) and then in the court room (Airplane II).. and there's a queue of people waiting to "calm her down".. they're wearing boxing gloves, carrying baseball bats etc..wumpus wrote:Someone help, I can't stop screaming!
Wow, I thought the rest of us here were anal retentive.
Considering that no recording standard is given for any of their measurements........they are all potentially correct (this is true of virtually all manufacturers' sound data)
One could have been measured at 1m, the other at 1 yard.
Or it could be a misprint, an error, an omission, an oversight, an estimation, an update, a correction, or a revision.
But it is most definitely not a cap-locked "SHOCKER"
Anyone who is really using the difference between 2.7 and 2.8bels as a decision maker is probably smart enough to read a couple of other online reviews. If not, caveat emptor.
Now if the 80Gig drive was actually only an 8gig drive, that would be a SHOCKER.
Considering that no recording standard is given for any of their measurements........they are all potentially correct (this is true of virtually all manufacturers' sound data)
One could have been measured at 1m, the other at 1 yard.
Or it could be a misprint, an error, an omission, an oversight, an estimation, an update, a correction, or a revision.
But it is most definitely not a cap-locked "SHOCKER"
Anyone who is really using the difference between 2.7 and 2.8bels as a decision maker is probably smart enough to read a couple of other online reviews. If not, caveat emptor.
Now if the 80Gig drive was actually only an 8gig drive, that would be a SHOCKER.
Are you sure? Evidence? The difference caused by multiple platters is tiny. Where do you get the idea that the number of platters makes a big difference?Cavicchi wrote:2 platters are noisier than 1 platter drives of the same manufacture and design.
I'm suggesting that they shouldn't be considering it. But people can consider whatever they like. Personally I like drives that come in pretty colors.Cavicchi wrote:Are you suggesting that people looking for a quiet drive are not considering the number of platters issue?
If a mulitple platter drive is screamingly loud, then the single platter version will be too. If a single platter version is quiet the multiple platter version will be as well. Do you have any examples that contradict this?
Well, if the 160G drive has 2 platters that must mean that each platter has 80gigs. Let me get my calculator.. yup, I was right... 160/2=80/X...solve for X....X equals 1.Cavicchi wrote:But do we know the SP0802N and SP0812N are single platter drives?
There's also the fact that the "80" in P80 stands for the gigs per platter, just like the naming convention they used with the P20's, and the P40's.
And don't forget the Samsung press release from when these drives came out, which advertized "80gigs per platter"
But here's the best idea...buy an 80gig and a 160gig version and then open them up and count. Be sure to report your "SHOCKING" results
Second platter?
Rusty, if I understand the decible system correctly, an increase of 3 is twice as loud and an increase of 10 is perceived as twice as loud(correct me if I'm wrong.)
When i was considering replacing my screaming deskstar(Dude, I'll never get another Dell) I chose the single platter seagate V over the dual platter w/ 8MB cache b/c of the noise difference, 3 decibles. It is not much, but in a near silent system it could make a noticable difference. If someone prefers two single platter HDD over one double platter HDD, they'd be crazy, maybe that's what you meant? (Personally, I prefer the Seagate over the Samsung b/c it looks better, seashell)
Would 2 platters produce significantly more heat as well?
http://www.seagate.com/docs/pdf/datashe ... daata5.pdf
Quiet seek 60GB bels = idle 120GB bels
prob. produces more high pitch or something but still worth noting...
Difference between Quiet and Performance seek is only 5 decibles so this must be significant for silent PC people. My comp. is two feet from my head w/ no insulation so I can hear it.
Also, sometimes drives do not use the full platter. EX. 40GB 7200.7. Maybe Samsung is doing this with both it's platters?
Cavicchi, that really is an interesting discovery. I'll be Ralf'll be pissed if it's true, he's been looking for the single platter version for a while now
Note: Seagate used to have a set bel # instead of the "< 2.5 bels" figure they report now. This is an update that I would guess is to make the 7200.7 appear equally as quiet.
Note also: Rusty prob. knows a hell of a lot more than I do about this stuff...
When i was considering replacing my screaming deskstar(Dude, I'll never get another Dell) I chose the single platter seagate V over the dual platter w/ 8MB cache b/c of the noise difference, 3 decibles. It is not much, but in a near silent system it could make a noticable difference. If someone prefers two single platter HDD over one double platter HDD, they'd be crazy, maybe that's what you meant? (Personally, I prefer the Seagate over the Samsung b/c it looks better, seashell)
Would 2 platters produce significantly more heat as well?
http://www.seagate.com/docs/pdf/datashe ... daata5.pdf
Quiet seek 60GB bels = idle 120GB bels
prob. produces more high pitch or something but still worth noting...
Difference between Quiet and Performance seek is only 5 decibles so this must be significant for silent PC people. My comp. is two feet from my head w/ no insulation so I can hear it.
Also, sometimes drives do not use the full platter. EX. 40GB 7200.7. Maybe Samsung is doing this with both it's platters?
Cavicchi, that really is an interesting discovery. I'll be Ralf'll be pissed if it's true, he's been looking for the single platter version for a while now
Note: Seagate used to have a set bel # instead of the "< 2.5 bels" figure they report now. This is an update that I would guess is to make the 7200.7 appear equally as quiet.
Note also: Rusty prob. knows a hell of a lot more than I do about this stuff...
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Ralf Hutter
- SPCR Reviewer
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- Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 6:33 am
- Location: Sunny SoCal
Re: Second platter?
Actually, I gave up on the non-existant SP0812N about 3 weeks ago and got an SP1614N that is perfectly quiet.Trip wrote: Cavicchi, that really is an interesting discovery. I'll be Ralf'll be pissed if it's true, he's been looking for the single platter version for a while now
I never claimed that the one platter Samsung would be quieter that the twp platter version of the same drive, just that it should be quieter, based on my (and MikeC's, IIRC) results of listening tests between the single platter 40GB Barracuda IV and the 2 platter 80GB Barracuda IV. I was hoping theose results would carry over to the Samsung line as well. Now it's a moot point.
Cavicchi,
I have already answered your similar bel related question in the StorageReview forum.
The fact is that comparing these figures from manufacturer to another is folly.
You will more than likely be mislead due to non-standard measurement techniques resulting in figures that are not comparable from one manufacturer to another.
The relative difference between the two Samsung models could well be correct. And it still doesn't mean that you will head one more louder than the other.
The point is, the proof is in the pudding.
There is no sound without a listener, merely vibrations in a substance.
And listening is a non-linear phenomenon, which cannot be adequately described or quantified in bels.
If you want to understand why, go to a library and look up audibility of various frequencies, critical bands theory relative to perceived sound loudness and resonance Q-variable influence on sound perception (at identical A weighted decibel levels).
It's all there in the psychoacoustic literature.
To sum it up:
1) Don't trust manufacturer specs. Especially, don't compare specs from one manufacturer to another.
2) Compare actual test results under same test conditions.
3) Don't equate technical specifications (even if accurate) with perceptual measures. The interplay is rarely linear in human senses (esp. hearing).
best regards,
Halcyon
I have already answered your similar bel related question in the StorageReview forum.
The fact is that comparing these figures from manufacturer to another is folly.
You will more than likely be mislead due to non-standard measurement techniques resulting in figures that are not comparable from one manufacturer to another.
The relative difference between the two Samsung models could well be correct. And it still doesn't mean that you will head one more louder than the other.
The point is, the proof is in the pudding.
There is no sound without a listener, merely vibrations in a substance.
And listening is a non-linear phenomenon, which cannot be adequately described or quantified in bels.
If you want to understand why, go to a library and look up audibility of various frequencies, critical bands theory relative to perceived sound loudness and resonance Q-variable influence on sound perception (at identical A weighted decibel levels).
It's all there in the psychoacoustic literature.
To sum it up:
1) Don't trust manufacturer specs. Especially, don't compare specs from one manufacturer to another.
2) Compare actual test results under same test conditions.
3) Don't equate technical specifications (even if accurate) with perceptual measures. The interplay is rarely linear in human senses (esp. hearing).
best regards,
Halcyon
Re: Samsung shocker!
Cavicchi, take a look at the specs of this drive (SV8004H) and tell me if there are ANY similarities...Cavicchi wrote:I went to www.samsungusa.com and found specs for their HDD models like SP0802N and this one is a SHOCKER. They list 2 discs and 4 heads for the SP0802N and take a look at the bel rating:
.......
Cheers,
Jan
Cavicchi,
no, I didn't miss it :)
I tried to tell you that even if the figures are correct (and I'm not saying they are), it doesn't mean that one is louder than the other.
Sound pressure is physical quantity.
Loudness is a perceptual measure.
If you are after loudness (what sounds "louder"), then you should not get too hung on physical sound intensity bel measures from the manufacturer.
Because higher bels don't always equate with louder sounds.
You need to listen to the drives or measure them with perceptual approximates.
I can appreciate your points that A) the data may be incorrect (often happens when mfgs copy & paste informatoin) and B) it is possible that the double platter disc might be more silent (in perceptual terms), but the bel figures do not prove it.
The proof is in the (eating of) pudding.
friendly regards,
Halcyon
no, I didn't miss it :)
I tried to tell you that even if the figures are correct (and I'm not saying they are), it doesn't mean that one is louder than the other.
Sound pressure is physical quantity.
Loudness is a perceptual measure.
If you are after loudness (what sounds "louder"), then you should not get too hung on physical sound intensity bel measures from the manufacturer.
Because higher bels don't always equate with louder sounds.
You need to listen to the drives or measure them with perceptual approximates.
I can appreciate your points that A) the data may be incorrect (often happens when mfgs copy & paste informatoin) and B) it is possible that the double platter disc might be more silent (in perceptual terms), but the bel figures do not prove it.
The proof is in the (eating of) pudding.
friendly regards,
Halcyon
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Ralf Hutter
- SPCR Reviewer
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- Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 6:33 am
- Location: Sunny SoCal
Re: Second platter?
Sigh...............Cavicchi wrote:Yes, should be quieter.Ralf Hutter wrote:.
I never claimed that the one platter Samsung would be quieter that the twp platter version of the same drive, just that it should be quieter, based on my (and MikeC's, IIRC) results of listening tests between the single platter 40GB Barracuda IV and the 2 platter 80GB Barracuda IV. I was hoping theose results would carry over to the Samsung line as well. Now it's a moot point.
But why is it a moot point? If you are saying that because Samsung lists the P80 as being a 2 platter design, how do we really know if in fact it is a 2 platter design?
Samsung's specification listing for the SP0802N and SP1614N have the Idle and Seek bels higher in the SP0802N !!!
So, all we know is Samsung has a problem putting up accurate information in their spec sheet, unless you want to believe the 160 GB drive is quieter than their 80 GB drive both in the Spinpoint series.
It's a moot point becasue I bought the 160GB drive instead of the nonexistent 80GB drive so I no longer care if the 80GB drive is .5db quieter than the 160GB drive.
And as for all these specs you keep quoting: As everyone else is trying to tell you, it really doesn't matter! It doesn't matter if one has 400 platters and a megaphone attached to it if it's still quieter than the single platter drive. The only thing that matters is what you hear with your own ears.
As everyone has told you over and over, the damn specs DON'T MATTER. They're either inaccurate or outright marketing fabrications and you should not live and die by them.
Sorry for yelling but you don't seem to be getting the point. Most of use here at SPCR seem to be pretty darn obsessive about things and would love to be able to rank this kind of stuff with nifty charts and stats yet we realize that numbers do not tell the story. I sure wish you could quantify this stuff with numbers but I rarely see much correlation between various manufacturers claims for something and the actual results.
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silenceseeker
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 11:47 am
Is it only me who thinks that the SP0802N and the SP1614N are not within the same series?Cavicchi wrote:The bel rating listed shows the 80 GB SP0802N as being LOUDER than the SP1614N (160 GB). Do you know of any manufacturer making 160 GB drives quieter than their 80 GB drive within the same series?
IMHO, if you really want compare 80GB vs. 160GB within the same series, then compare SP0812N to SP1614N.
Folks, please correct me if I am wrong.
Sam
I agree that one platter SHOULD be quieter, but as Rusty pointed out, it's wrong to jump to such a conclusion. Need data. There could be other factors to consider.
Heh, neutral review sites like this one are here to test drives like the Samsung to determine which is the quietest.
EDIT: remove retarded comment, spelling, and then to add the "EDIT" tag
Heh, neutral review sites like this one are here to test drives like the Samsung to determine which is the quietest.
EDIT: remove retarded comment, spelling, and then to add the "EDIT" tag
Last edited by Trip on Mon Dec 22, 2003 6:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Cavicchi,
Do have any real reason to think that having multiple platters will make a real difference in noise? Any evidence? Do you even have a theory as to how multiple platters would cause more noise?
I have a theory: Multiple platters will make a hard drive quieter, by reducing vibration.
Vibration is produced when a rotating body's center of mass does not coincide with its center of rotation. The further the center of mass is from the center of rotation the worse the vibration is. (the rotating body forms a torque arm between the two points)
If the platter was perfectly symmetrical there would be no vibration. That's the goal of HDD manufacturers everywhere. They get really close, but not perfect, that's why all HDD's vibrate.
But if you have more than one platter the imperfections will tend to cancel each other out. As you add more and more platters the stack will become statistically closer to perfection. (the chances of the imperfections multiplying are lower than the chances of them canceling. If you don't believe me please enroll in your local community college Calc 1 class, they'll explain it there)
So a drive with say, 300 platters will vibrate less than one with 1, and hence be quieter, since such a large portion of the HDD noise comes from vibration.
The other noise sources in an HDD are the drive motor and the heads.
The drive motor will have to be larger to spin that many platters, but not as much bigger as you'd think. Most of the effort on the part of the motor comes in the initial spinup. Once it's spinning there's very little air resistance, and the fluid bearings now a days have relatively little friction. If you'd be willing to sacrifice spin-up time you could make a 300 platter drive with a fairly small motor.
As for head noise I don't think there's any way to make 600 heads as quiet as two, so it'll be a loser on that end.
Do have any real reason to think that having multiple platters will make a real difference in noise? Any evidence? Do you even have a theory as to how multiple platters would cause more noise?
I have a theory: Multiple platters will make a hard drive quieter, by reducing vibration.
Vibration is produced when a rotating body's center of mass does not coincide with its center of rotation. The further the center of mass is from the center of rotation the worse the vibration is. (the rotating body forms a torque arm between the two points)
If the platter was perfectly symmetrical there would be no vibration. That's the goal of HDD manufacturers everywhere. They get really close, but not perfect, that's why all HDD's vibrate.
But if you have more than one platter the imperfections will tend to cancel each other out. As you add more and more platters the stack will become statistically closer to perfection. (the chances of the imperfections multiplying are lower than the chances of them canceling. If you don't believe me please enroll in your local community college Calc 1 class, they'll explain it there)
So a drive with say, 300 platters will vibrate less than one with 1, and hence be quieter, since such a large portion of the HDD noise comes from vibration.
The other noise sources in an HDD are the drive motor and the heads.
The drive motor will have to be larger to spin that many platters, but not as much bigger as you'd think. Most of the effort on the part of the motor comes in the initial spinup. Once it's spinning there's very little air resistance, and the fluid bearings now a days have relatively little friction. If you'd be willing to sacrifice spin-up time you could make a 300 platter drive with a fairly small motor.
As for head noise I don't think there's any way to make 600 heads as quiet as two, so it'll be a loser on that end.