safe to have a vertical case.mb w/ heavy heat sink?

no_nomenclature · Post by **no_nomenclature** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 8:59 am

given the weight of some of the popular heat sinks is it safe to have a vertical case/mb so that the heat sink is hanging on the cpu (like a bug on a wall and not a bug on a ceiling) rather than resting on it? i'd imagine it wouldn't be good as its putting uneven pressures (pulling on the top and pushing on the bottom) on the cpu and mb.

all the pictures i've seen (test rigs, personal rigs, etc) aren't very helpful as they invariably show the mb from an angle normal (aka: perpendicular) to the mb's surface.

i've seen a few warnings about removing heavy heatsinks before transporting your computer but never anything about which angle the heatsink can be safely stored at.

i'm planning on using an athlon xp 2100+ (stock speed or underclocked) w/ a thermalright slk800 (505g) on an asus a7v333 mb. haven't decided on the fan yet though i'm planning on an 80mm one. i ask bec it'll make a difference in which case i end up getting.

thanks!

Zyzzyx · Post by **Zyzzyx** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 9:20 am

I've wondered along similar lines. Just what is considered 'moving' your computer? I realize you should be gentle when pulling it out from under your desk to work on it. But then I was figuring on laying it down on the m/b side when transporting. Even a Zalman vid cooler wouldn't be putting much undue pressure in that position.

Zyzzyx
-makin plans for the next LAN party

tidan_md · Post by **tidan_md** » Wed Jan 08, 2003 5:40 am

As a student of mechanical engineering, I feel I may be able to answer some of your questions accurately...

First off - the heatsink+fan weight rating on most motherboards is 500g. This is the largest weight that the motherboard is designed to withstand under normal operating conditions, and I don't believe that takes into consideration moving around of the case.

The problem with heavy heatsinks isn't so much the pressure on the CPU as it is the stress on the plastic mounting clips. If you pick up your computer, bang it around, slam it down, etc. the clips are going to take a beating! The real problem arises when one of the plastic clips wears out from repeated loading and fails. When this happens, your heavy heatsink falls off the motherboard (possibly tumbling in the process) and slams into whatever is below it (e.g. Your l337 GeForce 4600 or ATI Radeon 9700+ Pro Ultra). This is bad.

If you never plan on moving your PC once it's set up AND you plan on using a HS/F with the clip connectors, you're probably okay. If you do move the PC, you're right - move it slowly, and when transporting it, keep it so the motherboard is level with the floor. Suddent jolts are the worst (impact loading is very bad for any connection, and can cause things to wear out much faster than gradual loading).

If you DO plan on lugging your PC around, chances are it will get banged around a little bit regardless of how careful you (or your friends) are. So then you might want to stick to a lighter (aluminum) solution. If your heatsink weighs around 500 grams, you might consider using a Zalman Bracket to attach your 80mm fan. Fans can be rather heavy when added to the heatsink, so this would also help.

Many high performance heatsinks now come with motherboard screw mounts, which will really eliminate the problem of the clips snapping off. This would be a good idea if you plan on doing a lot of moving around. The next bad thing that heavy heatsinks would do is cause too much pressure on the CPU core. This can be averted by using a CPU shim available almost anywhere, but it's unlikely that your CPU will suffer this type of damage unless you are very careless with your equipment.

To answer your first question, though, it is perfectly safe to have a vertically mounted heatsink in virtually any case. The pressure on the CPU is distributed evenly via the 4 pads on the AMD chips (I'm not sure about Intel). In the AMD case, the heatsink doesn't actually touch the CPU directly - it is separated by a thin film of some thermal compound. Stick with the vertical case - it's the most common, and there's really no benefit to keeping your motherboard level with the ground during operation.

Hope that helps.
-Bryan

Post by **MikeC** » Wed Jan 08, 2003 9:20 am

Nice complete reply, Bryan!

The real problem arises when one of the plastic clips wears out from repeated loading and fails.

This doesn't usually happen to anyone except modder/hacker/reviewer types, but it's one obvious reason the 6-lug clips are so much better.

deeseeel · Post by **deeseeel** » Wed Jan 08, 2003 2:24 pm

Random thought: What about the socket's connection to the motherboard? Assuming that the heatsink, cpu, and the socket stays as one piece, would it be possible that there is damage to the socket's connection to the motherboard?

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 6:02 am

deeseeel wrote:Random thought: What about the socket's connection to the motherboard? Assuming that the heatsink, cpu, and the socket stays as one piece, would it be possible that there is damage to the socket's connection to the motherboard?

That's what I'd be concerned about. The clips on the SLK-800 and SK-7 are not the weak point, it's the socket-MoBo connection.

That being said, I'm running an SLK-800 on my discontinued, very hard to replace MoBo and am careful if I have to move it. No sudden motions for this baby!

CeeJay · Post by **CeeJay** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 12:21 pm

Would it not be possible on heatsinks that cover the mounting holes (I [u]think[/u] the SLK-800 does) to [b]drill[/b] little holes into the base of the heatsink at the points over the mounting holes and use that kind of screw that carve themselves into a material and screw them into the holes, and thus mounting the heatsink to the motherboard

Remember to use something as a spacer underneath the MB .. otherwise you could damage the MB.
A pen might be sawed into useable pieces .. but anything nonconducting could do - plastics preferred

If someone tries this I would recommend that you screw the screws into the heatsink when it is not mounted to the CPU or anywhere near the MB.
If a small metalbit where to fall af , from the screw carving it's way into the heatsink that you would not want that shortcircuting something on your MB.
Screw it first and then clean it.

BTW after carving into the heatsink you can cut the screw to the lenght you need if it is too long.

For coolers like the SK-7 , that have holes themselves (but not where the mounting holes should be) you might be able to use a mounting method like the way the Zalman ZM50-HP and ZM80-HP heatpipe GPU coolers are mounted.
http://www.zalman.co.kr/images/swimages ... (full).swf

If ofcourse the heatsink doesn't cover the mounting holes .. if it does use the first method.

Post by **MikeC** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 1:02 pm

You guys are going off the deep end here!

Has anyone ever heard of the entire CPU socket getting ripped off or damaged because of a HS? What's the chance of that happening??

You should be careful when moving PCs anyway, and more so if you have a heavy HS that is only clipped on, because perhaps a big enough bump could dislodge the clip. But to have the CPU socket rip away from the motherboard because of a bump??

There are over 400 pins from the CPU socket that go through the motherboard and are soldered on the other side. There is absolutely no free play between the socket and the motherboard. To pull off or damage just one of those pins, you'd have to pull off at least half of them. Strength in numbers, you know. You'd have to get a screwdriver, wedge it between socket & board & apply a ton of pressure to get anything to give. I bet the PCB or socket would break before any soldered pins actually came off.

If you think I'm wrong, just try it with an old throwawy board. Any board. And then tell me with a straight face that the amount of pressure you applied to do damage could possibly be repeated with just the force of gravity on a 1/2 kg mass -- short of tossing it off a multi-storey building.

Gandalf · Post by **Gandalf** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 1:07 pm

I've *pulled* with pretty much all my force on an ( albeit ancient) motherboard. I was trying to remove the CPU but it was soldered on (which silly me didn't realise

) and it didn't come off .. so I think it's safe to say that there's no chance in hell that your heatsink falls off unless the clip dies. Or unless your heatsink puts more force on the mobo than I can

ez2remember · Post by **ez2remember** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 5:39 pm

Just a little note no one has mentioned, if you do move your computer around which has a heavy heatsink, I would advise you remove it first. Yes it's more work, but you are safe this way.

Belgarion · Post by **Belgarion** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 8:43 pm

MikeC wrote:Has anyone ever heard of the entire CPU socket getting ripped off or damaged because of a HS? What's the chance of that happening??

I think HardOCP had a picture back in Dec. or Nov. of a socket (plus CPU and HSF) that sheared cleanly off a MB (very neat, looked like it'd been desoldered). IIRC, they dropped the computer from a building top (or other large height) to cause this, though. I don't think you need to worry much about this in real life. I'd definitely be more worried about the socket lugs breaking off.

On a related note: why don't more 'sinks use mounting holes like the Swiftech MCX462+? Even with the 6-lug design of the SLK-800, I'd still be a little wary of any socket-mounting 'sink that exceeds AMD's (or Intel's) weight limit by any signficant amount. I read that AMD is phasing out the mounting hole design, but it still seems like a good idea to me.

Of course, the horizontally mounted CPUs in the Shuttle XPCs shouldn't have such issues (aside from shipping with the HSF attached). I've read that the XPCs are pretty quiet (heat pipes are cool), but has anyone modded an XPC to make it really (almost) silent?

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 6:29 am

Belgarion wrote:On a related note: why don't more 'sinks use mounting holes like the Swiftech MCX462+? Even with the 6-lug design of the SLK-800, I'd still be a little wary of any socket-mounting 'sink that exceeds AMD's (or Intel's) weight limit by any signficant amount. I read that AMD is phasing out the mounting hole design, but it still seems like a good idea to me.

Yes, AMD is phasing out the mounting hole design, some of the newer boards are already coming through without the hole pattern, and Socket 370 boards never have had the hole pattern in them. So there isn't a lot of incentive for HS manufacturers to develop those types of heatsinks for anything other than Socket 478 platforms.

deeseeel · Post by **deeseeel** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 1:19 am

Belgarion wrote:I think HardOCP had a picture back in Dec. or Nov. of a socket (plus CPU and HSF) that sheared cleanly off a MB (very neat, looked like it'd been desoldered).

Hmm, I guess there's where that random thought came from.

Belgarion wrote:Of course, the horizontally mounted CPUs in the Shuttle XPCs shouldn't have such issues (aside from shipping with the HSF attached).

Not only are the CPUs horizontally mounted, but the heat pipe models are secured at both the motherboard and the case. The P4 models have that standard plastic bracket and I believe the AMD models have a special screw attachment.

Belgarion wrote:I've read that the XPCs are pretty quiet (heat pipes are cool), but has anyone modded an XPC to make it really (almost) silent?

Well, what is almost silent to you?

I think most people complain about the 40mm fan inside the power supply as too loud. I've heard of people trying to mod that with some success.

As for 80mm case/heat sink fan, the most interesting mod that I've seen attached a homemade muffler to back. Other than that there's not much you can do with it except replace it. The fan is already controlled by the CPU temp.

JarsOfFart · Post by **JarsOfFart** » Sat Jan 25, 2003 10:02 pm

Ralf Hutter wrote:
Belgarion wrote:On a related note: why don't more 'sinks use mounting holes like the Swiftech MCX462+? Even with the 6-lug design of the SLK-800, I'd still be a little wary of any socket-mounting 'sink that exceeds AMD's (or Intel's) weight limit by any signficant amount. I read that AMD is phasing out the mounting hole design, but it still seems like a good idea to me.

Yes, AMD is phasing out the mounting hole design, some of the newer boards are already coming through without the hole pattern, and Socket 370 boards never have had the hole pattern in them. So there isn't a lot of incentive for HS manufacturers to develop those types of heatsinks for anything other than Socket 478 platforms.

The Abit NF7-S (nForce2 mobo) is one of the ones that does not have the mounting hole design.

hyum · Post by **hyum** » Sun Jan 26, 2003 3:42 am

there are a couple things i could hopefully shed some light in this thread, esp. for PCB mounted CPU heatsink designs:

ripping the CPU socket off, while catastrophic, is not the most common type of damage to your system if too much torque is placed on the heatsink. more common is board warpage over long periods at extended temperatures, micro- and visible fractures to the motherboard due to shock typical in shipping and long term warpage, and more.

for example, exerting too much weight on the CPU/PCB by having heavy heatsink over spec. mounted 90 degrees (e.g. tower case) may cause warpage over a long period of time, which can lead to fractures in the PCB, causing ceramic chip capacitors to fail by cracking, IC gullwing leads to break off from the solder joint, etc, over the life of the system (3-5 years 24/7 operation at maximum temperature).

also, one more note i can add. while intel desktop CPUs are still PGA, the sockets typically are no longer through-hole soldered. though electrically superior, intel PGA sockets are typically BGA surface mount, and are are much more delicate to mechanical stress. large amounts of stress might cause solder balls to crack from the pad.

counterpt · Post by **counterpt** » Tue May 06, 2003 10:26 pm

A friend of mine always had stability issues. No matter what he did, the system would crash under load. He must have tried 4 different heat sinks3, different cases, different motherboards, different memory, moded his cases with insane fans (it didn't have to be quiet), and put very loud fans. Nothing helped.
One day he had the computer on its side with the side (now top) pane off playing with it, and the problem went away. Now he has a chieftech dragon type midtower sitting on its side (closed panel) and it's very stable.
I know... maybe he had bad mounting clips or something but he did try different heat sinks each with their own mounting clips. It was an athlon t-bird 1400.

I just thought it interesting enough to share...

Jan Kivar · Post by **Jan Kivar** » Wed May 07, 2003 5:14 am

counterpt wrote:A friend of mine always had stability issues. No matter what he did, the system would crash under load. He must have tried 4 different heat sinks3, different cases, different motherboards, different memory, moded his cases with insane fans (it didn't have to be quiet), and put very loud fans. Nothing helped.
One day he had the computer on its side with the side (now top) pane off playing with it, and the problem went away. Now he has a chieftech dragon type midtower sitting on its side (closed panel) and it's very stable.
I know... maybe he had bad mounting clips or something but he did try different heat sinks each with their own mounting clips. It was an athlon t-bird 1400.

I just thought it interesting enough to share...

No/too much thermal grease?

engseng · Post by **engseng** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 6:39 pm

I was about to post this topic when I found it. Anyway, supposing if I'd a 500g Thermalright SLK-947u heatsink with 80mm Panaflo fan on it and an ATi Radeon 9800 Pro with ZM80C heatsink with an 80mm Panaflo fan on it....There's about 1 kg of weight on the motherboard. In this case, is it safe to mount it vertically?

Post by **Rusty075** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:09 pm

LushMD · Post by **LushMD** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 8:35 pm

Rusty075 wrote:Yes

I second this. A rather simple/stupid case in point is that one time when I was transporting my computer (w/SLK-900U and Zalman HS on Radeon 9500), I must have a taken a turn too fast and my computer actually managed to flip 180 degrees forward. Much to my surprise (and pleasure) my system survived intact. Of course, this is only one such instance and your experience may differ, but the example does illustrate the point that heavy CPU and graphics card heatsinks are not inherently dangerous. Having said that, after this experience, I am now much more careful/wary when moving my computer around. Take care.

al bundy · Post by **al bundy** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:15 am

LushMD wrote:
Rusty075 wrote:Yes
I second this. A rather simple/stupid case in point is that one time when I was transporting my computer (w/SLK-900U and Zalman HS on Radeon 9500), I must have a taken a turn too fast and my computer actually managed to flip 180 degrees forward. Much to my surprise (and pleasure) my system survived intact. Of course, this is only one such instance and your experience may differ, but the example does illustrate the point that heavy CPU and graphics card heatsinks are not inherently dangerous. Having said that, after this experience, I am now much more careful/wary when moving my computer around. Take care.

Man you must have been swearing like crazy while you opened up your PC to inspect for damage!

Put a seatbelt on that thing when you travel!

Dethheat · Post by **Dethheat** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 4:26 am

"ATI Radeon 9700+ Pro Ultra"

Making up new video card names, are we?

EazyduzIt · Post by **EazyduzIt** » Sat Oct 25, 2003 8:17 pm

I've installed 2 x Thermalright SLK800A's weighing in excess of 500g each on my dual Tualatin (S370) system. No problems, I just took care to make sure that motherboard was secured to chassis. I of course won't be moving it around too often.

Whoops. Thanks to Sidewindercomputers for the sterling service. I bought the SLK's from Gary at SW. The transaction couldn't have been smoother though it did take ten days to arrive, that's not his fault. USPS suits me as the price to ship wasn't exorbitant. US$32. U.S Indiana -> Australia, Darwin.

Also there is this Overclockers heatsink recommendation thread for dual AMD K7D system:

Copper behemoth thread

safe to have a vertical case.mb w/ heavy heat sink?

safe to have a vertical case.mb w/ heavy heat sink?

Re: safe to have a vertical case.mb w/ heavy heat sink?