Athlon64 Upgrade Cooling Recommendations

Whet1134 · Post by **Whet1134** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 7:25 pm

Hey guys,

It's been a while since I was on this site and last time I was here, you guys gave me incredible advice. I was hoping for an encore. I'm interested in upgrading my AthlonXP 1800+ OC'd to 1.7Ghz with a SLK-800 and Panaflo 80mm fan at 12V to an Athlon64. Right now I get about 35 degrees C in my case and 39 degrees C on chip when i'm playing games. My computer is ridiculously quiet and cool now (thanks to you guys) and I'd like to keep it that way. What cooling solutions can I use on the A-64's that will keep my temps around the 40C mark and leave my system barely noticibly on??? I know the A-64's use far more wattage than my lil A-XP so I know i'm gonna have to surrender a few precious degrees, but I'd like to use just my 2 panaflows and my Seasonic 120mm 350W PSU to keep it cool. Any suggestions? Any thermal charts? I know it's hard to keep it cool, quiet, and fast, but I did it once with the year before last's upgrade... time to do it again this year.

Thanks,

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 7:26 pm

Any reason you want to keep it at around 40C and not 50C? They're both perfectly stable temperatures.

Katana Man · Post by **Katana Man** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:31 am

I just upgraded to an Athlon 64 3200+ and I'm using a Thermalright SLK-948U. With a Panaflo 92mm fan at 6V, it's quiet and I'm running around 35.5 - 39C at idle. I'm very happy with the speeds and temperature. When the XP-120 heatsink comes out, I'll be upgrading.

krage · Post by **krage** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 5:53 pm

I just got an A64 3000+. I bought a thermalright 948U + SilenX 92mm 14dBa to go on it. Some people warned against the SilenX fan due to low static pressure not being particularly good for heatsink use and I think they may be right, although it seems adequate. I get about 43C idle and 54C load with this fan on 12V. I'm probably going to get a panaflo (i don't actually own any 92mm panaflos

) and undervolt to compare.

Katana Man · Post by **Katana Man** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:24 pm

krage,
If you take the side panel off of your case and see a significant drop (4-5 degrees) in temperature, then it's more likely an airflow problem in and out of the case and not your SilenX 92mm. Another quick test would be to swap out the SilenX 92mm for something faster. Both tests are cheap and quick.

krage · Post by **krage** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:38 pm

I've been playin around with this system quite a bit and temps don't vary much with and without the side panel, maybe 1~2 C tops. I've got an Ahanix 400W SilenX psu (single 80mm) and a SilenX 120mm (14dBa/58CFM) and the vga silencer on my 9800pro doing the exhaust work in my Antec P160 so airflow through the system is pretty good, the exhaust is never very warm. I've tried a whiney little TMD fan at full blast on the cpu and that does keep temps about 5C lower at idle and 8C lower at load so I've got some overhead there. I'm thinking adding a more powerful cpu fan and temp controlling either with speedfan or the bios option could be pretty effective.

I'm probably going to get a panaflo 92mm medium on the 948U just to see how far this CPU will go. I was lucky enough to get a CG stepping and I've got DDR500 in this system right now so I think I have some room to work there. My old noisy HDDs currently easily overpower all the fan/airflow noise in the case so until I save up enough for a couple seagates I'll try some higher airflow and see what this cpu can do

Whet1134 · Post by **Whet1134** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 4:13 pm

Thanks for the responses everyone. The reason I want to keep my temps around 40'C is for comfort reasons. The room that the PC is in has poor A/C ventilation; however, that is the only room I can place the PC in because of roommate concerns. So, since my roommates won't let me make the rest of the house -30'C like I'd prefer, I have to keep my computer temps down so as not to raise the temp of the room any more than it is. Honestly, when the computer is on, the room temp raises 4 or 5'C. The 19" monitor doesn't help any either. They're like my own personal space heater. I actually broke out into a sweat last summer because my PC was heating up the room so much. I wish I had better A/C vent access to the room, or could at least move the PC, but for now (and the next year at least) I can't and I need to keep my PC around 40'C. Currently, at load, I sit around 38'C, idle around 32'C. I underclocked my A-XP for a while, but no temp difference was noticible so I overclocked a bit; again not much difference. That's why I was hoping the A-64s had low wattage usage. Anyway, that's the reason for the temp limit. Can I use my SLK-800 on an A-64? Should I wait a bit for a newer Athlon? The purchase isn't necessary, but I'd like to do it soon because my A-XP is starting to show her age...

Post by **MikeC** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 4:30 pm

I have to keep my computer temps down so as not to raise the temp of the room any more than it is. Honestly, when the computer is on, the room temp raises 4 or 5'C.

The only thing that will lower the heat coming out of your PC will be to lower its electrical power consimption. Making more efficient cooling will actually reduce the amount of heat that's held in the PC and increase the heat that passes out into the room. In the end, only reduced overall AC consumption will drop the total heat dissipated by the system. No magic there.

Katana Man · Post by **Katana Man** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 4:34 pm

Yeah, I hear ya. Computers can certainly heat up rooms. Technically speaking, the CPU will kick out x amount of watts depending on what your CPU load is. A good heatsink will trick you into thinking that your CPU isn't putting out a lot of wattage, but in reality, the heatsink is just moving the heat into the air.

Katana Man · Post by **Katana Man** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 4:34 pm

Doh. You beat me to it Mike.

Post by **MikeC** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:06 pm

Katana Man wrote:Doh. You beat me to it Mike.

You'll get me next time.

tempeteduson · Post by **tempeteduson** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:26 pm

Talk about computers heating up rooms. I have an AXP 2200+ with the stock HSF and it gets to ~52 C under load (when I'm playing games). Ironically, it's the most powerful and coolest-running system of the three I have. Even at those temps, I'm forced to stop gaming for the sake of my ventilation.

Whet1134 · Post by **Whet1134** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:43 pm

I figured that the wattage output of the processor would be the biggest problem. And then the HSF moving it into my room via the PSU is prolly not helping. So my new question is this. What CPU would offer the lowest wattage output for this generation of processor? Would the Athlon 64's with their 2Ghz clock be cooler than a P4 3.0ghz? I'm preferential to the Athlons because I've used them for so long I don't know much about Pentiums. I'm willing to sacrifice a little bit of speed (since a few hundred Mhz doesn't make a big deal anymore) for a cooler CPU. That's why I got the 1700+ instead of the 2200+ back in the day. I think the 1700+ only uses 48W vs. the 2200's 54W. (But don't quote me on those numbers...) I've looked for a good wattage chart, but haven't been able to find one that tells me, point blank, which CPU will offer up the best CPU/Temp/speed perfermance. Thank.s

Post by **MikeC** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:01 pm

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article169-page3.html

Look at the SETI graph -- that's total AC power draw of the systems, and Because SETI is all CPU-intensive (no graphics or other subsystems), the power difference can be to attributed almost entirely to CPU differences. An A64-3400 draws 150W; A P4-3.4 NW draws 178W. This means the P4-3.4 system is generating 18.7% more heat. That heat will end up in your room.

Pretty conclusive, isn't it? Even if they figures were particularly favorable to the A64, that kind of difference can't be just sample variance. It's there, it's real: No question the A64 draws a lot less power.

Whet1134 · Post by **Whet1134** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:39 am

Thanks to Mike and the SPCR Gang again for helping me figure out what to do!

I'm definitely going to stick to AMD. It looks like the A-64 2800+ is calling my name. Although the 70W idle scares me a bit, (since my A-XP is around 50W at load...) I hope I can keep my holy grail of 34C inside my case. 115W at load is certainly frightening as well because I've never dealt with power outputs that high. I may be taking the undervolt route and experimenting with keeping the power usage down. Especially since my Panaflos aren't heavy hitting 120mm's. What kind of voltage differences show up with C'n'Q? When I say my computer is quiet, I mean dead silent. I'd like to keep it that way. Sometimes i can't tell if it's on or not. I had to put a superbright LED in the window to make sure if it was on or off. Will that still be possible?

I guess my next problem is finding a Mobo to replace my wonderful wonderful Asus A7N8X. It has to have Dolby Surround, full cpu customizations, and 2 Nics. Time to go hunting. Also, What would be the best HS to get for the A-64? (Either out now or coming in the next month or so... i can wait a lil bit.) I have 80mm and 92mm panaflos laying around to be used.

Thanks everyone!

Post by **MikeC** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 8:37 am

Whet1134 wrote:Thanks to Mike and the SPCR Gang again for helping me figure out what to do!

No problem

.... It looks like the A-64 2800+ is calling my name. Although the 70W idle scares me a bit, (since my A-XP is around 50W at load...) I hope I can keep my holy grail of 34C inside my case. 115W at load is certainly frightening as well because I've never dealt with power outputs that high.

If you're referring to the SETI chart I linked above, those numbers are for total SYSTEM AC power consumption. You're dealing with at least that in in your system right now.

wumpus · Post by **wumpus** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 11:07 am

The 19" monitor doesn't help any either

Switching to a 17" LCD* would reduce your power consumption, and therefore your room heat generation, quite a bit. I'd estimate the LCD will use 1/3 the power of the CRT.

* remember these are measured differently-- CRT's cheat by measuring non-visible parts of the tube (covered by the bezel) from edge to edge, whereas LCDs measure only visibile area. That's why a 17" LCD is generally equivalent in viewable area to a 19" monitor.

Whet1134 · Post by **Whet1134** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 8:02 pm

Cool! So those figures at idle are SYSTEM power usage?! That changes things. At 71W, that Athlon64 could be using only 50W... that I can deal with. I feel bad for people using a P4EE though. 115W at load for a system I guess is pretty good. I suppose my Seasonic 350W will still be able to power my beast then? I tried one of those system wattage calculators and it told me I needed 455W of power to keep my system running... seems to be working fine on my 350W. Anyway, that allays my fears for now.

A few final questions:
1. Would my current SLK800 work with the A-64? Would I have to get a new one? Is there a better one for the job?
2. What would be the best mobo to get if I need S/PDIF coax Dolby Digital Surround, 2 NIC's, Firewire, and Dualchannel SDRAM?
3. Would it be wise to keep my PC2700 Corsair RAM or look into some PC3500... maybe some PC4000?

Thanks ladies and gents!

Post by **MikeC** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 8:35 pm

1. different mounting hardware; Zalman Z7000 works well, pretty cheap.
2. IIRC, dual channel automatically means 939 socket; only expensive 3500+ and 3800+ CPUs right now. A64-2800 only in 754 socket CPU, which is fine. Read the A64 article in The Silent Front section -- very little benefit to dual ch. Mem controller is right in the CPU in A64, not on the board, bandwidth is essentially independt of board. Eeven on Intel board, dual ch, mem is only a few percent gain.
3. Why not? If you do, you will have a new board, cpu, HS & mem... Why not just build a new system and get a chance to do everything just so. Pass on the old -- either sell, trade or... donate.

Wedge · Post by **Wedge** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 8:57 pm

MikeC, in reference to the article you linked above, any idea where a P4 2.8C falls on that chart? It's my next build and I already have the processor, else I would have went the AMD 64 2800+ route (after reading the article).

Whet1134, If you're on a tight budget, go with the socket 754 and 2800+ processor. If you go socket 939, things will start getting expensive pretty quickly. The AMD 64 2800+ can be had a Newegg right now for $165 (7 / 25 / 04).

Post by **MikeC** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 9:41 pm

P4-2.8C -- Somewhere in between the 2.4C system (144W w/SETI) and the 3.4 system (178W).

Here's an imperfect but reasonable comparison. I have 2 systems under my desk right now --

1) P4-2.53 w/512M-RAM, 2 Seagate IV-40G, and Matrox G400 Max.
AC Power w/ folding: 135W It's pretty good, my main system, runs in 22~23 dBA/1m in <25C weather.
2) A64-3200 / 512M-RAM, 1 Seagate V-120G, and ATI9800Pro.
AC Power w/ folding: 163W. Runs hotter and about 2~3 dBA louder mainly because of the VGA card.

If both had 2 drives: 135W vs 173W
If both had 2 drives & ATI9800Pro: P4-2.53: 175W vs A64-3200: 173W. (I've plugged the Matrox G400 Max into the A64 system before; it draws 40W less than the ATI.)

Max Power figures: from http://www.cpuheat.wz.cz/html/Pentium4.txt
P4-2.53 -- ~75W
P4-2.8 -- ~79W

SO... With efficiency loss through PSU, you'd see about a 6-7W increase w/ the 2.8: Instead of 175W, it'd be 180~182W.

dago · Post by **dago** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 11:23 pm

Just to throw my 2ç, I just build up a A64 3000+ at work (9200SE, 1Gb RAM, 1HDD, 1DVD, nobrand PSU) and ...

- power draw : from 80 to 125W from the wall

- motherboard : I would say one with nForce3 250, e.g. MSI K8N Neo Platinum or Asus K8N-E Deluxe. You just have one ethernet, but that's gigabit with integrated firewall ... The asus has coax digital out.

Anodyne · Post by **Anodyne** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:32 am

I just built a new A64 2800+ system using the MSI K8N Neo Platinum and so far am very happy with both. Word of warning, though: MSI uses a glued-on backplate that is not compatible with the Zalman 7000 (as I discovered too late). If you search the forums (both here and at MSI) you will find more info. Apparently you can remove the backplate with some effort so that the Zalman can be mounted, but I haven't tried it yet. Also, the integrated nVidia hardware firewall has some teething problems according to some posts I've read, so for now I am still using Zone Alarm.
However, aside from those two issues I am totally happy with the MSI board and recommend it wholeheartedly. The native SATA controller is awesome, just plugged in my new Samsung, loaded WinXP, and off I went!

wumpus · Post by **wumpus** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:36 am

MSI uses a glued-on backplate that is not compatible with the Zalman 7000 (as I discovered too late).

Different mobo, but this got me too. The heatsink I originally purchased did not come with a compatible backplate, although it was A64 compatible, it made assumptions about the backplate.. very annoying. So my backplate was removable, just wasn't the right "type" for this heatsink (needed screwholes, only had "clips").

Some heatsinks do come with the necessary backplate, and clearly some don't. Weird.

Caveat emptor.

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:40 am

Hello:

Anodyne wrote:I just built a new A64 2800+ system using the MSI K8N Neo Platinum and so far am very happy with both. Word of warning, though: MSI uses a glued-on backplate that is not compatible with the Zalman 7000 (as I discovered too late). If you search the forums (both here and at MSI) you will find more info. Apparently you can remove the backplate with some effort so that the Zalman can be mounted, but I haven't tried it yet. Also, the integrated nVidia hardware firewall has some teething problems according to some posts I've read, so for now I am still using Zone Alarm.
However, aside from those two issues I am totally happy with the MSI board and recommend it wholeheartedly. The native SATA controller is awesome, just plugged in my new Samsung, loaded WinXP, and off I went!

Do the threaded "holes" on the backplate stick up above the front of the motherboard? Did you try the Zalman to be sure that it couldn't be tightened properly?

I would use Sygate or Zone Alarm in addition to the nVidia hardware firewall *anyway*.

Did you need to do the F6/floppy SATA driver bit in order to boot from the SATA drive, or does it just work?

Whet1134 · Post by **Whet1134** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 4:00 pm

Hmmm, I'm having a tough time finding a motherboard that meets my requirements. Is HyperTransport a big bonus over the 800Mhz FSB? I have an nForce2 and I love the nVidia chipset on my Asus, but the Via K8T800 chipset boards seem to offer so much more. I would REALLY like to have dual-channel RAM support and I have to have the onboard S/PDIF and Firewire. That means the MSI Neo-Platinum is out. The Asus K8V SE Deluxe looks pretty hot. Anyone had any problems with the Asus? Newegg doesn't say whether it uses Dual-channel so I'll have to trust that it does. And I don't know enough about HT to know if it helps that much. Thanks for all the support!

Dave

Oh, and does WinXP-64 hit soon?

Anodyne · Post by **Anodyne** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 4:54 pm

Neil - Yes, the MSI backplate has threaded 'holes' that stick up about 1/4" above the surface of the mobo. I tried fitting the Zalman on top but it looked pretty shaky to me - that was just my impression from eyeballing it. It's a big heatsink, and I was worried that if the screw pressure wasn't correct it might not contact the CPU adequately. In the end I just used the stock heatsink because I really needed to get the computer up and running, but eventually I plan on trying to mount the Zalman (when I have a free weekend!). I have since discovered some advice posted on the MSI forums for removing it. BTW, the Zalman is one of those heatsinks that does come with its own backplate, in case you need it.

Regarding the SATA: If you are not running RAID, you do not need to hit F6 to install drivers, it just works! If you are setting up a RAID, then you do. Essentially it works just like regular old IDE ports.

Whet1134 - The MSI K8N does have firewire, as well as S/PDIF out ports (both coaxial and optical). I cannot speak to the quality because I do not have a digital speaker set, but for my purposes the audio is just fine (listening to MP3s and gaming through analog ports).

Also, I have seen a lot of articles (in print and online) asserting that since the A64 has an integrated memory controller dual-channel RAM does not play that big a role anymore. I am sure that there is a slight speed advantage, but for me the cost difference for going socket 939 was not worth it - I used the extra money for a Plextor DVD+/-RW!

BTW, the ASUS K8V Deluxe does not have dual-channel either. I hear it's a great board, but there are no socket 754 A64 motherboards that support dual-channel, you have to go to socket 939 or 940 for that, and socket 939 is your best bet unless you want to pay extra for registered RAM. If you can afford it, go with a socket 939 mobo and CPU, but if you're on a budget (like me!), socket 754 is a great deal. I started off with a 2800+ to save cash, but down the road I should be able to upgrade to at least a 3700+ before AMD abandons socket 754 (fingers crossed).

Anodyne · Post by **Anodyne** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:04 pm

Whet1134, I forgot to add: Not to sound like an MSI fanboy or anything (this is my first MSI board, previous board was an Iwill and I can only say the MSI is better), but if you look at the newer nForce 250Gb chipset mobos they do not lack any features over the VIA K8T800 boards. From what I read (no personal experience), they are both pretty stable and both about the same speed. The HT speed seems to make only a slight overall speed difference. One reason I got the MSI K8N Neo Platinum is the wealth of features on it - I can't think of anything that it doesn't have, except for SB Audigy-level sound, and there's nothing out there on A64 boards of that quality onboard anyway. The clincher for me was the native SATA support, you'll never have to hassle with driver disks when setting up Windows (unless you want RAID).

Whet1134 · Post by **Whet1134** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 7:53 pm

Thanks for the info Anodyne. I have nothing against MSI, my roommate loves his MSI nForce2 board. I'm eyeing up both the Asus boards and the MSI board heavily. The only reason I'm iffy on the K8T800 vs. nForce3 250 is that 1.) nForce2 was significantly better than Via in the motherboard arena two years ago and 2.) I read that the new nForce3's weren't nearly as up to par as the new Via chipsets (according to Tom I think). Honestly, I would go either way. I had an Iwill too with a Via (KT266?) chipset and I wasn't impressed. I guess it will all boil down to what features I want. I'd like to take advantage of HyperTransport, I definitely like the unified driver setup of nVidia, I love the 7.1 audio (is it Dolby Digital like the nForce2 boards??), and I guess I don't need dual-channel cause I don't want to spend the extra money on the 939 boards... What to pick... what to pick... I'll let you all know what I decide! Thanks.

Anodyne · Post by **Anodyne** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:31 pm

I don't think you can go wrong with either board, based on the reviews I've read. I was all set to go with the same Asus board when the new MSI came out, and as I said it was really the native SATA that sold me. There is also a newer version of the VIA A64 chipset out (I believe it is called K8T800 Pro), but I haven't read any reviews on those boards yet.
I don't believe the audio on the MSI is of the nForce2 quality, but it does use a newer chip (or codec, or whatever) than the Asus. Frankly, my ears aren't good enough for me to worry about it too much, but others may have more discerning taste.
Just try Googling the two boards, by now there are dozens of reviews of each on the net. I also read the user reviews on Newegg, although I try to take those with grains of salt.

Athlon64 Upgrade Cooling Recommendations

Athlon64 Upgrade Cooling Recommendations

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