pentium-m adapter for socket-478

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:20 am

luggage · Post by **luggage** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:38 am

Anandtech is running an article on it also.
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/sh ... spx?i=2382

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:02 pm

@#@$ overclockers. Legit reviews shows only the multipliers they can set with the EIST tool. Why don't they tell us what voltages are availlable.

B Bennion · Post by **B Bennion** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:16 pm

Does anyone know the size of the included fan? My old Gateway heatsink used the same system of simply screwing the fan into the heatsink fins-- changing the fan to a sub-20 dB fan should be a 2 minute event...

Still want passive....

Elixer · Post by **Elixer** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:00 pm

I wonder if a zalman 7000 or 7700 with some longer bolts would fit fairly easily? It seems like the gap in the radial design of the heatsinks in the zalman would match the spot where the power connector is on the converter card.

Just-Chris · Post by **Just-Chris** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:54 am

I was very excited about this until I read anands article.

There are 4 serious downsides over the AOpen solution.

1) The CT-479 does not support the Pentium M's SpeedStep technology

2) You can't adjust the clock multiplier of the Pentium M like you can on the AOpen/DFI offerings.

3) You also can't adjust the Pentium M's core voltage when using the CT-479; you're stuck at the default voltage.

4) Becuase of the placement of the power connector, after market cooling looks to be tricky to say the least!

Oh well, back to waiting for some to crack this problem properly!

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:58 am

Mats wrote:Legit Reviews, part 2.

REVIEW UPDATE:Asus gave the reviewers a newer BIOS with more options and better performance.

Post by **MikeC** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:34 am

Reading Legit Review's & AnandTech's reviews makes for an interesting contrast. LR is obviously having a field day playing with the Asus P-M gear & totally open to experimentation and interpretation of the results.

In contrast, I am struck by how AT insists that the P-M is unsuitable for desktop computing. On the basis of price, the Asus P-M solution comes up at the top of AT's own benchmarks way too often for it not to be a serious contender, depending on your application.

The price for the Asus mb + adapter is <$150, certainly no higher than most 775 or 939 boards. The P-M 2.0 price is ~$450 right now. The processors AT is comparing against the P-M, the ones it so often beats, run $600~900. We're talking about the heavyweights -- A64 FX55, 4000+, 3800+, P4-3.7EE, 570, 660...

It is sad that AT cannot open his eyes up to see the big picture here -- not only is the P-M duking it out aginst heavyweights that run faster, cost more, but it's doing it while consuming 4 to 6 times less energy! This has impact far beyond whether your multimedia content gets created in 30 seconds or 38 seconds, or even how much quieter the P-M system would be.

We don't even have to touch the energy/ecology issue. From a multimedia creation business PoV running a hundred PCs, you'd have to consider the $ saved with Asus P-M machines (reduced utility bill, reduced HVAC bill, reduced UPS cost, reduced initial purchase price) against the 20% faster processing speed and increase costs (increased utility bill, HVAC bill, UPS cost, higher initial investment) of going with something like Intel 570, 660 or AMD FX55 machines. It is not a simple equation.

Is it possible that AT is reflecting the P4/desktop bias of the Intel personnel they are closest to?

sgtpokey · Post by **sgtpokey** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:05 am

Regarding the anandtech article,

Their benchmarks are good, I disagree with their conclusions. Namely, what I saw was a great desktop computer for the things I use a desktop for: games, general productivity, and the internet.

The places that Anandtech said it was "dissappointing" are processes that I don't particularly care about. But even then, it's performance beat out many intel cpus, and the lower end Athlon 64's. Which means it's still faster than my current desktop Athlon [email protected].

The other place where i disagree was where they concluded that this would be a disappointing HTPC computer. The primary criteria for an HTPC (for me) is the power/heat issue.

Encoding performance is not important, since video encoding is offloaded to a hardware tv-tuner (better quality, frees up your computer cpu time for multitasking). The problem here is the definition of an HTPC, Anandtech apparently means a computer that can manipulate audio and video and do it so often that performance matters for these tasks.

If by HTPC, you mean a computer that can act as a TIVO & A/V Server (no heavy duty manipulation), that kind of HTPC can be done with even just a Via-class cpu (as long as the mpeg encoding is offloaded to a $75 tv-tuner card).

The only thing bad about this adapter is the custom heatsink and lack of voltage regulation. But I'm hoping the fan is replaceable which would allow us to make the heatsink silent. Since the pentium M's work fine using smaller heatsinks and less open airflow in laptops, I don't anticipate any real problems aside from the psychological desire to be able to put a GIGANTIC Zalman or Thermalright on there just because we want to.

But the flipside is the overclocker in me WANTS to punch up the cpu and see how high you can get it, and for those purposes you DO want the option at least to put a gigantic heatsink on it.

Final point: With the july price cuts, the 2ghz Pentium M might be the "sweet spot" in terms of performance and overclocking potential. A 166mhz fsb would = 2.5 ghz, which would mean it would be at/near the top of the heap in terms of game performance, and compare favorably price-wise to the top-end stock Athlon FX.

Let's see what the next generation Pentium M boards offer...

sgtpokey · Post by **sgtpokey** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:08 am

Ha, I did not read the update at Legit Reviews: Cool!!

UPDATE: A few hours after posting our article ASUS-USA delivered a Beta BIOS for us to us. They have filled every overclockers dreams with Voltages all the way up to 1.95V. The BIOS also improved graphics performance a ton! We will be updating the rest of the review today with the benchmark results from the latest BIOS. ASUS really pulled one off for the enthusiast community with this BIOS release.

And as I finish reading, the LegitReviews article is much better for the tinkerer(overclocker/underclocker) with more interesting detail than the anandtech review.

Key points: tools exist to change the multiplier AND undervolt, while the BIOS update let's you increase cpu voltage AND improved graphics performance.

Looking good...

mshan · Post by **mshan** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:12 am

What do you guys think of the asus P4P800-VM mATX mobo for use with this adapter and a mobile Pentium 4?

Is it sufficiently cool that, when combined with a 6600GT, can be very quiet in an Antec Aria SFF computer case?

Post by **MikeC** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:28 am

mshan wrote:What do you guys think of the asus P4P800-VM mATX mobo for use with this adapter and a mobile Pentium 4?

Is it sufficiently cool that, when combined with a 6600GT, can be very quiet in an Antec Aria SFF computer case?

Yup. Well, pretty quiet anyway. The PSU in the Aria will be the noise floor. (Too high for me.)

Bottom line: You can put a P-M system in almost any kind of case w/o worrying about heat much. It's that cool.

sgtpokey · Post by **sgtpokey** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:43 am

@#@$ overclockers. Legit reviews shows only the multipliers they can set with the EIST tool. Why don't they tell us what voltages are availlable

Tibors, he answers that in this thread:

http://forums.legitreviews.com/viewtopi ... c&start=20
___________

Let me try to answer some questions...

- What is the lowest V-Core can be set in the BIOS (or in software) ?
The lowest setting in the BIOS is 1.2750V
The lowest setting on EIST(software is 0.998V)
- when running at 1.275V the CPU temp is 34C (mobo temp was 28C)
- i tried lowering the core via the software, but doesn't seem to work. I believe this is due to the fact that the vCore is done on the adapter and not the board. When you unplug the adapter the system wont even post when powered on.

sgtpokey · Post by **sgtpokey** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 2:18 pm

This will be the last post that I quote the legitreviews forums (he's just full of fun information):

I just got off the phone with ASUS-USA (yes, they are closed for good Friday, but for some reason they are talking to Legit Reviews today due to the article we posted)

Next on the list is the ever popular P4C800E. The BIOS is due out early next week. After that is the P4GD1, which is the i915P chipset!!!!

More choice for silent pc'ers, we can now legitimately look at mobile bartons, mobile athlon 64s, normal undervolted athlon 64s, pentium Ms, and don't forget celeron Ms!!!

BTW, there was some anandtech article talking about how cache has little affect on gaming performance --> if true than an overclocked celeron M with 1mb cache could be a candidate for a killer, cheaper, low-power/noise gaming rig.

BTW2: Legit Reviews is doing a Part III where they benchmark Pentium M performance overclocked to 200+ fsb and memory dividers at 1:1... will be interesting to see what difference the extra fsb and memory bandwidth does for the P-M. Note that that will be the FIRST real data of P-M performance with a fsb that can actually take advantage of the availalbe memory bandwidth.

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:52 pm

sgtpokey wrote:More choice for silent pc'ers, we can now legitimately look at mobile bartons, mobile athlon 64s, normal undervolted athlon 64s, pentium Ms, and don't forget celeron Ms!!!

Don't forget the upcoming C7 CPU from VIA. Dunno what kind of performance they will have and they're not here yet,
but S478 and 2 GHz @ 7 W is interesting enough to keep an eye on them....

MiKeLezZ · Post by **MiKeLezZ** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:09 pm

Mats wrote:
sgtpokey wrote:More choice for silent pc'ers, we can now legitimately look at mobile bartons, mobile athlon 64s, normal undervolted athlon 64s, pentium Ms, and don't forget celeron Ms!!!
Don't forget the upcoming C7 CPU from VIA. Dunno what kind of performance they will have and they're not here yet,
but S478 and 2 GHz @ 7 W is interesting enough to keep an eye on them....

Same as PIII 600 MHz... :\
Maybe it is too much...

Dothan 770 instead is the same as A64 4000+... :\\\\\\

sgtpokey · Post by **sgtpokey** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:11 pm

The C7 sounds like another contender if I ever update my HTPC.

thanks for the link and heads up, I missed that one!

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:16 pm

MiKeLezZ wrote: Same as PIII 600 MHz... :\

You're kidding, right? If you know something, please tell us!

PM 770 is EXPENSIVE, don't forget that.

MiKeLezZ · Post by **MiKeLezZ** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:26 pm

Mats wrote:
MiKeLezZ wrote: Same as PIII 600 MHz... :\
You're kidding, right? If you know something, please tell us!
PM 770 is EXPENSIVE, don't forget that.

Yes it is expensive (770 is 400USD) but A64/Prescott are in the 800USD range.. You save a lot of money! And if you do not need so much power you can buy Dothan 1,7Mhz instead (250USD? I do not remember).

By the way, I wasn't kidding. Via Eden 1Ghz is the same as PII 400 Mhz (not exactly of course, more or less) so Via C7 2GHz will be something like 2,5X more powerful.. Just like a PIII 600 (maybe 800), surely not more..

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 2:41 am

MiKeLezZ wrote:
Mats wrote:
MiKeLezZ wrote: Same as PIII 600 MHz... :\
You're kidding, right? If you know something, please tell us!
PM 770 is EXPENSIVE, don't forget that.
Yes it is expensive (770 is 400USD) but A64/Prescott are in the 800USD range.. You save a lot of money! And if you do not need so much power you can buy Dothan 1,7Mhz instead (250USD? I do not remember).

You're comparing the 770 to a 4000+:

Dothan 770 instead is the same as A64 4000+

Did a quick check in the US and found the 770 for $666 and the 4000+ for $525, in Sweden $784 and $640 respectively. Where in the world is the situation the opposite??? I would very much like to hear where I can buy the 770 for $400 (excluding the upcoming price cut in July) and the 4000+ for $800.

By the way, I wasn't kidding. Via Eden 1Ghz is the same as PII 400 Mhz (not exactly of course, more or less) so Via C7 2GHz will be something like 2,5X more powerful.. Just like a PIII 600 (maybe 800), surely not more..

Ok, but you really don't know what the C7 is? Your posts are full of guessing.
I should have known better, this is a waste of time...

MiKeLezZ · Post by **MiKeLezZ** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 3:07 am

Mats wrote:
MiKeLezZ wrote:
Mats wrote: You're kidding, right? If you know something, please tell us!
PM 770 is EXPENSIVE, don't forget that.
Yes it is expensive (770 is 400USD) but A64/Prescott are in the 800USD range.. You save a lot of money! And if you do not need so much power you can buy Dothan 1,7Mhz instead (250USD? I do not remember).
You're comparing the 770 to a 4000+:
Dothan 770 instead is the same as A64 4000+
Did a quick check in the US and found the 770 for $666 and the 4000+ for $525, in Sweden $784 and $640 respectively. Where in the world is the situation the opposite??? I would very much like to hear where I can buy the 770 for $400 (excluding the upcoming price cut in July) and the 4000+ for $800.

By the way, I wasn't kidding. Via Eden 1Ghz is the same as PII 400 Mhz (not exactly of course, more or less) so Via C7 2GHz will be something like 2,5X more powerful.. Just like a PIII 600 (maybe 800), surely not more..
Ok, but you really don't know what the C7 is? Your posts are full of guessing.
I should have known better, this is a waste of time...

1. Italy.
AMD Athlon 64 4000+ socket 939 BOX : 650€
AMD Athlon 64 FX55 socket 939 BOX : 900€
Intel Pentium-M Dothan 1.8Ghz. 2MB L2 Cache socket 749 TRAY : 300€
Intel Pentium-M Dothan 2.0Ghz. 2MB L2 Cache socket 749 BOX : 420€
You live in Sweden, I do not think you can do a fair price comparison..

2. We'll see.
Via 1GHz is = PII 400 MHz. That is FOR SURE

.
Via 2GHz will be more or less = PIII 700 Mhz. Yes, this is my guess but I'm right

.

Do you REALLY think it will be like a Barton 2500+? Or maybe a A64 3500+ ??? AHAHAHAHA .. Keep on dreaming

. Fly down...

3. When you do not know things you should keep your fingers off the keyboard ..

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 4:14 am

1. Italy.
AMD Athlon 64 4000+ socket 939 BOX : 650€
AMD Athlon 64 FX55 socket 939 BOX : 900€
Intel Pentium-M Dothan 1.8Ghz. 2MB L2 Cache socket 749 TRAY : 300€
Intel Pentium-M Dothan 2.0Ghz. 2MB L2 Cache socket 749 BOX : 420€

First of all, where is the PM 770? That's the one you compared to the 4000+.

You live in Sweden, I do not think you can do a fair price comparison..

Well if you don't believe me, see for yourself:
A64
PM770
1 Euro = 9.29 SEK according to forex.se
I checked US prices too, read my post again. A price comparisation in Sweden is just as valid as one in Italy, you can't disagree about that (we both get very high prices, right?

)

I checked the reviews once again at Legit reviews and Anandtech, at LR the 3500+ wins over the 770 with 4 - 2.
Anandtech's tests shows this:

The 4000+ wins over the 770 with 29 - 4
The 3800+ wins over the 770 with 27 - 6
The 3400+ wins over the 770 with 17 - 16

The 770 wins over the 3200+ with 25 - 8
The 770 wins over the 3000+ with 29 - 4

We need more tests to make any conclusions but so far it looks like you can compare the fastest PM 770 to a 3400+ or a 3500+, nothing else. It's very hard to compare CPU's in general since they have different performance in different tasks.
According to Kelkoo Italy, prices are:
4000+: €609
3800+: €384
3400+: €205
3500+: €250
PM 770: €623
Yes, the PM is more low power for sure, but not a top performer. You get three 3400+ instead of one PM 770 for the same money!

2. We'll see.
Via 1GHz is = PII 400 MHz. That is FOR SURE .
Via 2GHz will be more or less = PIII 700 Mhz. Yes, this is my guess but I'm right .

But hey, it's not the same processor!!!! The new one got SSE2, SSE3 and NX, which alone is no guarantee for good performance, but it tells us that this is something newer and different.

Do you REALLY think it will be like a Barton 2500+? Or maybe a A64 3500+ ??? AHAHAHAHA .. Keep on dreaming . Fly down...

...duh..

3. When you do not know things you should keep your fingers off the keyboard ..

So far I've proved you wrong, and when it comes to the C7 none of us really know for sure, time will tell.

MiKeLezZ · Post by **MiKeLezZ** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 5:20 am

You are right, I didn't remind 770 was 2.13Mhz :\ .. so the one I took as example was 760, not 770.
From 2.0 to 2.13 there seems to be a 200€ gap (!!!).. the problem is that here in Italy only 2 shops have Dothan (Tecnocomputer and Pumped Hardware) and only 1 has 770 (so the price is pretty high).
BTW I checked in Germany ( www.geizhals.at ) and there you can easily find 770 at 500€ and 760 at 380€, keep in mind that is hard to compare Dothan to a "regular" desktop CPU, but I think it is something like FX55, not A64.. sometimes it performs better, sometimes worse.

About Via, they didn't change nothing about CPU Architecture (yes, it will have SS2, SS3, NX, ecc, but these do not help so much if CPU do not have enough power), we'll see.
I can only tell you that now it is hard to watch some (not all) dvx/xvid with only a Via 1Ghz CPU.. High Definition Videos are forbidden

With a 2GHz Via CPU you should be able to see all dvx/xvid but I do not think you'll be able to see HDVs..

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:04 am

MiKeLezZ wrote:Via 1GHz is = PII 400 MHz. That is FOR SURE .

Do you have a sources for this claim?

In most discussions I read over the last three years or so, the VIA C3 1GHz is said to be aproximately equal a PIII 600MHz. That's quite a difference with your claim. Could it be you stopped watching VIA in the time they still used the Samuel and Ezra cores? Those proc's had an abominal FPU which pulled the whole CPU down. The Nehemia core C3's have a much better FPU.

Since there are enough applications where the current C3 can be used, e.g. the websurfing and office applications box in my sig, I don't see why the C7 would not be an option to keep an eye on.

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:18 am

MiKeLezZ wrote:keep in mind that is hard to compare Dothan to a "regular" desktop CPU, but I think it is something like FX55, not A64.. sometimes it performs better, sometimes worse.

Yes, that comparisation is always difficult. I can see two ways to do it when it comes to performance. One way is to compare benchmarks that is relevant to you, the other one is to compare a lot of bencmarks like Anandtech did and look at the average results. According to them the 770 actually is a mid range performer just like the 3400+ and the 3500+, and nothing like FX-55. Yes, maybe in in a few benchmarks it wins over all the other, but if we look at the average results it doesn't look that good. I want more tests! I know that Hexus.net will make one, I'm waiting....

In general (not pointing at you, MiKeLezZ) many people are staring blind at heavy overclocked PM's compared to other CPU's running at stock speed, and only looking at a few benchmarks. I guess this happens mostly at overclocking forums. The true advantage with PM is still low power, not top performance. The performance seems comparable to a 3400+ (2400 MHz, 512 kB, single channel) which should be quite close to the upcoming Turion MT (2200 MHz max, 1024 kB, single channel) running at only 25 V.

Tests I'd like to see:
Performance - take a PM and an A64E in the same price range and overclock them as far as you can and do some benchmarking, which is the fastest one? Never seen this kind of comparisation (comparing other overclocked CPU's with overclocked PM's that is). Should be done with both low and high price CPU's.

Low power - Use the same HSF and figure out which CPU that will give the best performance (overclock/undervolt allowed) at a given temp. Put thermal probes on the HSF to double check that the temps are equal.

B Bennion · Post by **B Bennion** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:26 am

Uh, Priorities!

Since when was silence cheaper than high decible assualt? The conversion factor for the Pentium M in dB to performance is awfully hard to beat +/- other price comparisons.... If cost and performance are the primary considerations- buy a PC-leafblower delux with an AMD FX and lots of high flow (noisy)fans.

But keep the dB ratings at sub 19dB levels and find me anything--- within $300 that will match the performance of a lightly moded M system.

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:44 am

B Bennion wrote: But keep the dB ratings at sub 19dB levels and find me anything--- within $300 that will match the performance of a lightly moded M system.

A64D? A64E? T64? Sempron D?
I think you have a very low noise system with a plain and simple 3500+, XP-120, Nexus 120 and a Seasonic S12 330, someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Mine and Mikelezz discussion was not about low power, and I've already said that the PM is the most low power CPU. Nuff said.

Shining Arcanine · Post by **Shining Arcanine** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:19 pm

Mats wrote:
B Bennion wrote: But keep the dB ratings at sub 19dB levels and find me anything--- within $300 that will match the performance of a lightly moded M system.
A64D? A64E? T64? Sempron D?
I think you have a very low noise system with a plain and simple 3500+, XP-120, Nexus 120 and a Seasonic S12 330, someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Mine and Mikelezz discussion was not about low power, and I've already said that the PM is the most low power CPU. Nuff said.

What happens if you want to passively cool it?

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 7:02 pm

Shining Arcanine wrote:What happens if you want to passively cool it?

Then this P-M adapter is definately not the easiest solution, 'cause you can't just swap the cooler.

B Bennion · Post by **B Bennion** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 7:37 pm

I'm hiding my HD's in the cat where the noise floor won't be noticed-- then the effort to go passive with the PM will pay off....