Scythe Ninja Rev.B (In)Compatiability With Asus P5w DH?

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sitalchauhan
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Scythe Ninja Rev.B (In)Compatiability With Asus P5w DH?

Post by sitalchauhan » Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:43 am

I have read lots of recent reports that the new revesion B of the ninja is incompatiable with the Asus P5B (without chopping bits off) as it hits some of the capacitors.

I was thinking of ordering a rev.B ninja and have a P5w-DH.
As these motherboards are quite similar, I just wanted to check can anybody confirm if the new revision if compatiable or not with this motherbaord?

Thanks,
Sital

VT50WA
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Post by VT50WA » Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:54 pm

I emailed Scythe about compatibility of the Scythe Ninja RevB with the Asus P5B-Deluxe and Abit AW9-D Max and they told me it was incompatible with the boards because the Socket 775 bracket interferes with capacitors near the CPU socket.

I emailed them back and told them that basically every Conroe board has caps next to the CPU socket and they responded by telling me the design was a bit of a stuff up.

Im planning on getting an Ultra 120 instead.

Durwin
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Post by Durwin » Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:17 am

I have a Scythe Ninja Plus (is that the Rev B?) on a P5W DH and didn't have any problems fitting the cooler, I certainly didn't need to bend or chop anything. You should be fine.
If you want troubleshooting help with the P5W, take a look at vip.asus.com/forum/ - choose motherboards and select the P5W DH. There are some issues with the SATA implementation if you have high-end requirements, otherwise its fine.
Antec P180, Asus P5W DH, Intel C2D E6700, Scythe Ninja+, SB X-Fi Elite Pro, 2GB Corsair 6400C4, Plex760SA, 3*WD SE16 500GB, Dell 2405FPW

paapaa
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Post by paapaa » Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:34 am

Scythe Ninja Plus is not necessarily rev.B. If you use the backplate you are using rev.A which works fine with most C2D mobos.

The new Ninja Plus rev.B uses a different mounting (no backplate) and Scythe messed up with the design. It doesn't fit properly most C2D boards. Please see here:

viewtopic.php?t=34842&highlight=

pyogenes
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Post by pyogenes » Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:25 am

It definitely fits. I just installed the Scythe Ninja Plus rev B on my P5W DH Deluxe last night. You have only a couple millimeters of clearance from the capacitors but it works just fine.

And yes, it can be a real pain to install - especially in the Antec P180.
Joe

Paul123
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Post by Paul123 » Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:38 am

pyogenes wrote:It definitely fits. I just installed the Scythe Ninja Plus rev B on my P5W DH Deluxe last night. You have only a couple millimeters of clearance from the capacitors but it works just fine.

And yes, it can be a real pain to install - especially in the Antec P180.
Are you absolutely sure it is properly seated and not interfering with the capacitors? What are your temperatures?

paapaa
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Post by paapaa » Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:51 am

pyogenes wrote:It definitely fits. I just installed the Scythe Ninja Plus rev B on my P5W DH Deluxe last night. You have only a couple millimeters of clearance from the capacitors but it works just fine.
Couple of millimeters? That can't be right. See this picture:

http://www.pcper.com/image.php?aid=297& ... rd_big.jpg

Someone just tried to install Ninja rev.B at it failed because of the middle 3 capacitors on the left side of the socket. This means that at least the 2 middle capacitors on your P5W DH should prevent a clean installation.

Could you double check your mounting?

sitalchauhan
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Post by sitalchauhan » Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:39 am

Thanks pyogenes for indicating that you had no problems. However, after looking at pictures of the P5B and P5W, they do look very similar and it does seem that the heatsink would probably also have problems with hitting the capacitors on the P5W.

pyogenes, I would be extremely grateful if you could provide picture(s) of the heatsink fitted, or just re-confirm that it fits 100% without any problems at all.

Many thanks,
Sital

pyogenes
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Post by pyogenes » Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:07 pm

I'm sure it's mounted correctly. I idle around 40C and 100% load stays under 60C. I expect it to improve once the AS5 has a chance to cure.

Temps are from TAT so they might seem high if you go by the motherboard's readings.

I'll try to take a picture tonight but it's a tight fit in the case so it might not be visible (I'd rather not pull the motherboard out again to get a perfect picture).

In the very least, I'll slide a folded up piece of paper between the bracket and capacitors to verify there's a gap. :-)
Joe

Paul123
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Reply from Scythe Support

Post by Paul123 » Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:42 pm

Hello,

Here is the email I received from Scythe support yesterday.
Scythe Support wrote:Thank you for your inquiry about Ninja Plus CPU cooler.

Please take a look at the attached image of Ninja Plus Rev. B's installation kit for socket 775. The capacitors around CPU on the motherboard might interfere with those red circled part on the attached image. Therefore, Ninja Plus Rev.B might not fit on this motherboard. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813131028

For your information, please go to the below website and update your inquiry so there might be some helper you could find. http://support.asus.com/default.aspx?SLanguage=en-us

Should you have any further inquiry, please simply reply to this email.

Best regards,

Scythe Support team
Hope this helps.

pyogenes
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Post by pyogenes » Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:13 pm

I was able to take a printed sporting events ticket (nice heavy weight paper), fold in in half and pass it between the mount and the capacitors with no resistance at all. Definitely less than a couple millimeters as I first stated, but there is no contact.

thanks to the cramped conditions of the case, the only pictures I could take were through the top vent. I apologize for the horrible picture quality. A penlight is just too weak of a light source...

What you'll want to take note of is the shadows. Simple geomery tells us that the bracket's shadow on the capacitor is only possible if there is a gap between the two. The shadow is more obvious in the second shot.

Image
Image
Joe

paapaa
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Post by paapaa » Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:20 am

So are the capacitors on P5W DH shorter than the ones on P5B Deluxe?? That is the only way to explain this. Or maybe it is just manufacturing tolerance: the capacitors might be installed higher or lower and you got lucky.

pandb
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Post by pandb » Fri Oct 20, 2006 5:05 am

pyogenes, with the temp readings you are getting, are you running the ninja with the fan or not? any OC?

I have managed to put the ninja on my P5B but there is definite contact with the capacitors. currently fanless on my E6300 at stock speed in my Antec P150 with one case fan at low setting, i get 40 degrees on idle and 52 on full load.
I have put the supplied fan on the ninja but any OC put the load temp over 60. not entirely impressed. it is possibly due to the bad contact beteen ninja and the CPU (caused by the capacitors).

i am planning to hack the attachment but it is quite difficult to snip a bit of metal off with no specialised tools.

pyogenes
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Post by pyogenes » Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:44 am

Paapaa:

Based on the photo you linked to and my pics, Asus uses the same capacitors on both boards, so I think you're on to something.


Pandb:

I'm using an unmodded Yate Loon 120mm fan on the Ninja. E6600 at stock speeds and voltages - overclocking it this weekend's project.

I've been running TAT @ 100% for about 2 hours and have yet to break 55C - it occassionally bumps up to 54C but it seems to stay around 51-52C. I'm checking the temps using Remote Desktop so I can't give you an ambient temperture reading but I'd wager it's around 15C right now. I was around 23C ambient for the readings I gave in my previous post, so we're looking at a difference of ~40C between ambient and core while running TAT @ 100%

How did you orient your Ninja? I know it looks symmetrical in all four directions, but it isn't really. The copper base has cooling fins also but only allows for airflow on one axis - make sure the fan blows cool air through there for maximum cooling.
Joe

sitalchauhan
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Post by sitalchauhan » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:36 am

pyogenes, thats for those pictures and temperature reading. It seems that the Rev.B ninja does actually fit on your P5W.

It could either work on all P5W's, or could be down to orientation, or manufacturing variance in height of capacitors, or maybe something else.

If somebody else with another P5W and Rev.B ninja could try fitting it, I think it would clarify the situation as there still seem to be mixed opinions even though it works for pyogenes.

I think we can basically confirm 100% that there are problems on the P5B though :(

Thats guys for all the input.

NeoNSX
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Post by NeoNSX » Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:38 am

Clarification:

Ninja Rev.B with P5B Deluxe = capacitors touch.
Ninja Rev.B with P5W DH Deluxe = Okay.



Here's a photo I just took of my Ninja.B and P5W DH Deluxe Mainboard. I setup a proper spotlight and camera to take this (to end all doubt). This is peeping down thru the top fan in my P180 case. There is definite clearance.

Image
Signatures are a waste of bandwidth. eg. you just read one. :)

nick705
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Post by nick705 » Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:10 am

FWIW, I've emailed both Scythe Europe (who couldn't be bothered to respond at all) and Scythe USA, who sent a stock response directing me here.

Apparently it does make a difference (at least with the Gigabyte C2D mobo they use as an example) if the mounting plate is rotated through 90%, like so:

Image Image Image

I'm still not entirely convinced, but maybe those of you who have a P5B or P5W could confirm...?

awitti
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Post by awitti » Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:20 am

Great pics, Nick. That illustrates the problem perfectly.

The problem is that with the 90 degree rotation the ninja can only be mounted so that ideal airflow will be toward the top of the case.
Not a problem with some cases (Antec P180), but not ideal with others.

I just trimmed the bracket to clear the caps. So far so good, but Scythe should really rectify this.

cmthomson
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Post by cmthomson » Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:47 pm

awitti wrote:The problem is that with the 90 degree rotation the ninja can only be mounted so that ideal airflow will be toward the top of the case.
Not a problem with some cases (Antec P180), but not ideal with others.
Huh?? The Ninja is completely symmetrical. You can mount the fan on any of the four sides, and the air flow impedance is identical in all four directions.

The issue here seems to be with the orientation of the mounting bracket. Yes, the heat sink itself will also be rotated, but that has no consequences.
i7 4790K CPU@4.6 GHz, ASUS Z97-PRO, 16GB G.Skill 2400C10, Intel 335 240GB SSD + WDC EFRX 1TB, Internal i7 graphics, Antec P180 case, Seasonic X-400 fanless PS, Megahalems CPU HS, Nexus 3-pin & AC PWM fans < 600 RPM, AcoustiPack foam, homemade ducts.

pyogenes
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Post by pyogenes » Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:06 pm

cmthomson wrote: Huh?? The Ninja is completely symmetrical. You can mount the fan on any of the four sides, and the air flow impedance is identical in all four directions.
That is true for the top portion of the Ninja. Don't forget about the lower part of the heat sink. The fins on that part of the Ninja only allow airflow in one axis - not 2 as the uppoer portion does. If you want to avoid the capacitors as much as possible and maximize the cooling potential by cooling the lower fins, you need to have the fan blowing up (which then limits Northbridge options...)
Joe

pandb
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Post by pandb » Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:05 pm

surely any fan mounted on the ninja to blow hot air up will feed the hot air into the PSU. this will cause any PSU to ramp their fan and cause more noise.
I have mounted my ninja and fan to push the air towards the back of the case and where a case fan pulls it out.

I have mounted the ninja on my P5B. the ninja mount is definitely touching the capacitors (and may have bent them outwards when I forced the mount on). However, despite the contact the ninja with fan seem to work well enough with full load temp at just below 60 degrees for a E6300 OC to 2.33gHz. however, i cannot help that at the back of my mind of whether the capacitors are preventing the ninja having a good contact with the CPU.

I forgot which way the screws holes for the mounts are but i am not relishing to take the ninja off to check. It took me a long time to put the heatsink in my tight P150 case.

nick705
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Post by nick705 » Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:26 am

Just a quick update - Scythe Europe have now got back to me (apologies to them for my impatience). They say they've obtained a P5B in order to carry out further tests, and will let me know the outcome in a day or two.

I have a feeling though from the posts above that it's largely down to manufacturing tolerances, either on the mobo or the mounting plate itself, and while it may (just) fit on one particular sample without problems, it may not necessarily do so on another.

I've also asked them if their universal retention kit is a suitable alternative for the Asus boards and the Ninja B - if so, problem solved, although it's a bit annoying having to buy a separate part.

What these big tower heatsinks really need is a bolt-through mounting similar to the Asus Silent Square, which looks a good deal more solid than anything from Scythe or Thermalright...

paapaa
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Post by paapaa » Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:34 am

nick705 wrote:What these big tower heatsinks really need is a bolt-through mounting similar to the Asus Silent Square, which looks a good deal more solid than anything from Scythe or Thermalright...
There is no evidence that even Infinity weights too much. I've read no problems with the weight - unless you move your case a lot.

Thermalright Ultra 120 seems to have a backplate if that is what you want.

icepik
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Post by icepik » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:49 am

Well, I purchased the new revision of the Scythe Ninja along with the Asus P5B-E last night. I figure I'll just take a hacksaw to the bracket like others in this thread have done. What the heck, I'm not afraid!!

Then again, I may get lucky and not have to mod it at all. Time will tell...
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oomingmak
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Post by oomingmak » Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:08 am

nick705 wrote:I've also asked them if their universal retention kit is a suitable alternative for the Asus boards and the Ninja B - if so, problem solved, although it's a bit annoying having to buy a separate part.
What was the response to this question? Did you hear back from them?

nick705
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Post by nick705 » Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:33 am

oomingmak wrote:
nick705 wrote:I've also asked them if their universal retention kit is a suitable alternative for the Asus boards and the Ninja B - if so, problem solved, although it's a bit annoying having to buy a separate part.
What was the response to this question? Did you hear back from them?
No, they never did answer that specific question. It seems unlikely there'd be any problems given that it was the standard mounting method with the earlier revision, but I was just a bit unsure in case anything else had changed in rev. 2 which would make the mounting kit unsuitable.

They did tell me that they'd obtained a P5B Deluxe, a P5W DH Deluxe and a Gigabyte GA-965-DS4 for testing, and that the rev. 2 Ninja fitted on each of them with no interruption. They sent me a nice picture of a P5B Deluxe to "prove" the point:


Image


They did however inform me that they'd be releasing yet another revision to the LGA775 bracket early in the new year, so it seems they still have their own doubts and if you have one of the boards in question it might be worth hanging out for that one. As I said somewhere else, given the contradictory experiences people are having it seems likely that it's mostly down to manufacturing tolerances, so you may get lucky and you may not...

/edit: I see they've put that image up on their Europe support site now, along with a disclaimer: "Please note that this compatibility may not apply to all the motherboards as the manufacturer randomly tend to change the components (capacitors, condensers, etc) used for their motherboard without informing to the public. Hence, the height of the capacitors and condensers maybe higher depending on the production lot of the motherboard." So we're none the wiser really.... :lol:

cmthomson
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Post by cmthomson » Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:26 pm

For those who don't want to wait for this to be resolved, you can buy the old style backplate and rail mount as a separate kit. It has higher clearance, and is also sturdier.
i7 4790K CPU@4.6 GHz, ASUS Z97-PRO, 16GB G.Skill 2400C10, Intel 335 240GB SSD + WDC EFRX 1TB, Internal i7 graphics, Antec P180 case, Seasonic X-400 fanless PS, Megahalems CPU HS, Nexus 3-pin & AC PWM fans < 600 RPM, AcoustiPack foam, homemade ducts.

oomingmak
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Post by oomingmak » Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:00 am

Thank you both for the update. :)

Unfortunately I can not afford to wait till next year, as I want to have my new system built before Christmas.

What exactly is the old mount kit called? (I'm new to this, and I want to make sure that I don't want to end up getting the wrong thing). Also, does anyone know where I could buy this particular kit in the UK?

Thanks again.

pandb
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Post by pandb » Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:44 am

i think the old mount kit is called the scythe universal retention kit. you can get it in the uk from quietpc.com
http://www.quietpc.com/gb-en-gbp/produc ... /uniretkit.

I also have the ninja and P5B deluxe. i think i will give the mount a miss. although my ninja mount does touch the capacitors but it seems to work OK. E6300 at stock speed is around 29 degrees with ambient at 21 degrees.

cmthomson
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Post by cmthomson » Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:11 pm

pandb wrote:i think the old mount kit is called the scythe universal retention kit
Yep, that's it. You use the backplate and the two steel rails, together with a couple of bolts and washers.

Don't peel the backing off the backplate adhesive!
i7 4790K CPU@4.6 GHz, ASUS Z97-PRO, 16GB G.Skill 2400C10, Intel 335 240GB SSD + WDC EFRX 1TB, Internal i7 graphics, Antec P180 case, Seasonic X-400 fanless PS, Megahalems CPU HS, Nexus 3-pin & AC PWM fans < 600 RPM, AcoustiPack foam, homemade ducts.

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