Why is this system so hot?

blake · Post by **blake** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:47 pm

Okay made some cooling modifications to my system - its a heck of a lot quieter but my temps are way too high

System:

-Antec Sonata III case
-E6600 CPU
-Rear exhaust and front intake Noctua 120mm fans (1200RPM)
-Thermalright HR-01 heat sink
-Artic Silver 5 thermal paste (staight line of paste down center of CPU)
-Fan duct mounted to rear exhaust fan

Temps:

-Ambient (room) 25'C
-Motherboard 46'C
-CPU idle (die): 47'C
-CPU stress (die): 63'C

Any thoughts why these temps are essentially identical to my setup using the stock intel hsf? This is my first time mounting an aftermarket HSF etc, but I following the instructions carefully. I did NOT use a bolt thru kit on the 775

Aris · Post by **Aris** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:48 pm

noctua fans have very poor air pressure, and dont perform as well when mounted on heatsinks and in other area's restrictive air paths. A nexus 120mm or Scythe S-Flex 1200rpm would be better suited for those situations.

Also note that quiet operation and cool operation do not go hand in hand. You will have to sacrifice low temps for quieter operation.

Your current load temps dont look that high to me. 63c is respectable, id be happy with your results if i was you.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:55 pm

try running without the front intake fan, it'll help your (negative) pressure.

blake · Post by **blake** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:05 pm

tried without the front fan, same temps 63-66'C CPU die when stressed with Ortho.. I even cleaned HS, reapplied AS5, and re-set the heatsink same temps.

I am guessing the airflow in the Sonata III is too poor, OR as mentioned the noctua isnt great with a fan duct (although it feels like there is decent air venting out the back). I will try my original antec tricool to see if it works better as a fan duct/rear fan.

blake · Post by **blake** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:47 pm

Is there any way to pinpoint if the problem is at the level of the CPU heat sink, or the system case in general?

For example, my "mobo" temp is 46'C which seems hot? So, if the cpu gets to 63 on full stress, it is increasing 18'C --- does this reflect good or bad for the CPU heatsink?

Is 46'C high for this mobo (asus p5n32-e sli)? I am not even sure where the sensor is. Ambient temp in room 25'C

dangman4ever · Post by **dangman4ever** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:31 am

What programs are you using to monitor your temps? Also, you do know that it takes AS5 200 hours to burn in before you see any real temperature drop?

Plissken · Post by **Plissken** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:52 am

I think it's a combination of the Noctua and Sonata. The Noctua is not the greatest CPU heat sink fan (I'm using one). I don't have a Sonata III, but I have an older one and the airflow isn't great as stock. Improve airflow and/or replace HSF if you want better temps with no noise increase. If your current system is quiet enough, your temps are high but not extreme. If you've checked everthing I wouldn't worry about the temps.
Like dangman I'm also curious as to what software you are using to measure temps.

Das_Saunamies · Post by **Das_Saunamies** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:54 am

Good old airflow test: open side panel to varying degrees. If temperatures drop dramatically, you have an airflow issue.

Excluding proper exhaust by ducting the exhaust fan sounds like a bad idea in a Sonata, take my word for it. Also do note that your CPU cooler is essentially passive, so high temperatures are to be expected(drawing remote fan instead of blowing surface fan). Front intake is good in a Sonata(low revs), drops ambient by a few degrees centigrade(depending on room ambient) and will help the chipset cooling with passive heatsinks. (http://www.asus.com/prog_content/middle ... model=1459)

Also, is your PSU bottom-intake? What graphics card do you have dumping heat inside the case?

blake · Post by **blake** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:30 pm

Temp software is SpeedFan. I have an Nvidia 8800GTS card.

I will try replacing the noctua rear exhaust with a different 120mm fan when i am back home in a week. And also try opening the case to see if temps improve.

62'C stress is too hot, a lot of the Thermalright HR-01 hsf reviews show much cooler (i.e. 40-50'C range). I was hoping to be able to overclock just a bit!

tehfire · Post by **tehfire** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:26 pm

Are you running pseudo-passive? Or did you have a fan directly on the HR-01? Sorry, a little vague on the setup...

Redzo · Post by **Redzo** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:47 am

blake wrote:Temp software is SpeedFan. I have an Nvidia 8800GTS card.

There is your answer. If you put a vid card that has 145W TDP (GTX is at 177W) in a system it will raise temps considerably

And you should use bolt thru way of connecting HSF. It will give you at least 5-6c lower temps. And since you are using HR and you dont have a fan on that HR-1 so your temps are actually fine with regards to your components

ronrem · Post by **ronrem** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:12 am

A hot vid card really should not be used in a case that's small and with inefficient airflow. You may have other issues. Done right-I think the bolt through is the best mount. Often people use too much thermal grease

While the Sonata has it's good points...a lot of people find the airflow to be poor

Aris · Post by **Aris** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:23 pm

ultimately, there are 3 types of computers.

quiet, cool, and fast.

having just one of the 3 is easy, having 2 is difficult, and all 3 is almost impossible.

So if you want it to be fast, and quiet, it will run hot.

If you want it to be cool and fast, it will be loud.

you just have to decide for yourself which one of the 3 your willing to give on.

blake · Post by **blake** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:39 am

Hmm, maybe I am expecting too much out of this system in a Sonata III.

To clarify my setup: Sonata III case, E6600 CPU with Thermalright HR-01 (AS5 paste) and fan duct connecting the HR-01 to the rear exhaust fan (Noctua 120mm). There is NO fan DIRECTLY on the HR-01. There is a front Noctua case fan. NO other fans (other than PSU and stock GTS8800 fan).

I notice there are 2 copper heatsinks on the Asus P5N32-E motherboard connected by a heat pipe very close to the CPU socket. These mobo heatsinks are extremely hot to touch. This asus board is "passively" cooled by this system.

When I remove the side of the Sonata III case and put a room fan blowing on the system, the motherboard temp drops from 49'C to 39'C. The idle CPU temp parallel the mobo temp (usually running 2-3'C cooler) ex. 36'C in this scenario. When I stress the system with Ortho, CPU goes from 36'C to 56'C. (better than my 66'C before!). But of course, running an open system with a huge fan blowing on it is impractical.

2 questions:

1. Do these numbers support a problem ONLY with case ventilation?
2. Does the rise in CPU temps from idle to stress (36'C to 56'C = 20'C rise) represent adequate CPU heat sink action (HR-01)?

I think I will replace these 2 Noctuas to try to improve case vent. Too bad - I followed the fan review here and these came out on top - I missed the followup discussion regarding pressure/resistance issues. I heard the Scythe SFlex fan's are good (better airflow than noctua in resistant system with low noise). Do you guys recommend these fans in my system??

Specs: Scythe SFF21E, 120mm, 1,200rpm, 20.1dBA 49.0CFM 0.15A.
See link:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article69 ... html#sflex

Thanks for your help.

Das_Saunamies · Post by **Das_Saunamies** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:35 am

Try without the external fan, that's a more reliable test of airflow and cooling capacity.

I'd call those 10'C drops dramatic, so airflow isn't as good as it could be, meaning you have too much hot air in the case that doesn't get replaced with cool air efficiently. In other words, you have a Sonata without component-matching cooling.

The CPU cooling is exactly what I'd expect from a setup like that. It's just below the risk limit, but not good. Dump the duct(improves exhaust), get a dedicated fan(improves CPU cooling) -- or live with the high temperatures.

Noctua as intake in a case as restricted as Sonatas(fan not at mouth, sideways HDDs packed tight in front, cabling and solid steel in the way), BAD. Noctua restricted with duct through CPU heatsink fins, BAD+BAD. Keep the exhaust Noctua but lose the duct, switch intake to something that generates pressure better: Nexus/Yate Loon, Scythe, Noiseblocker, et al. I use a 1000 RPM Noiseblocker Blacksilent @660RPM and it's all good -- I also have a 1400 RPM exhaust of course, idling at 800RPM.

That ducting is a poor compromise: it isn't as good as a proper passive tower in silence or power:

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article290-page4.html wrote:The test bench was tilted sideways to see if it could perform passively â€” it couldn't.

It isn't as good as a dedicated fan in power, see above link. It serves no one, work as it may.

You still haven't elaborated on your PSU. If it's not bottom-intake, or is one that is slow, then that only adds to the heat troubles.

Aris · Post by **Aris** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:42 am

blake wrote: I think I will replace these 2 Noctuas to try to improve case vent. Too bad - I followed the fan review here and these came out on top - I missed the followup discussion regarding pressure/resistance issues. I heard the Scythe SFlex fan's are good (better airflow than noctua in resistant system with low noise). Do you guys recommend these fans in my system??

yeah i wasnt too happy about how easily they recommended the noctua fans. i see many people lately using them, most don't seem to be happy with their performance drop off for the low noise. especially when they can get somthing just as quiet that performs much better.

i would say the scythe s-flex 1200rpm, nexus, and the oem nexus (yate loon's) should be the only "SPCR Recommended" 120mm fans.

Das_Saunamies · Post by **Das_Saunamies** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:03 am

*waves the Noiseblocker Blacksilent flag*

I maintain that these are just as good, and more affordable! The 92mm Blacksilent already made its way onto the recommended list, and the 120mm was shunned too easily. The review states that they are just as good as the existing reference, but offer nothing special to distinguish from them, ergo they belong on the list.

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article739-page5.html#noiseblocker wrote:--And, unlike Fander, the 120mm Noiseblocker that we looked at â€” a Black Silent Fan XL-1 Rev. 2.0 â€” we had no issues with sample variance to ruin our impression of the manufacturer.

--Of all the fans in this roundup, the XL-1 was the most consistently quiet, and it had the best noise signature. Be that as it may, there's little to be said about the XL-1 that we didn't already say about the 92mm XE-1. The XL-1 is basically the same fan in a 120mm form factor. [note: a recommended 92mm model!]

To summarize: It sounds very similar to a Nexus, with the same low, smooth noise character that disappears around ~7V. As with the XE-1, the noise character is a little more tonal, and can be heard at a slightly lower speed, but the difference is too small to be truly relevant. The "longlife" sleeve bearings do seem to be specified for longer than usual for sleeve bearings, but they suffer from the same orientation sensitive issues as any other sleeve bearing: Increased wear and decreased speed when mounted horizontally.

--Our conclusion: The XL-1 is definitely quiet enough to contend with the best, but there's no need to go looking for it if one of our other recommendations is available.

Except the price tag. Same performance for half the price. And if it's just as good, why not recommend it?!

This may be the wrong place to do this... but I feel injustice here, especially towards potential buyers.

Aris · Post by **Aris** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:22 am

id say the biggest reason its not "recommended" is because of the light blue plastic fan blades. People round here are very leery of that type of plastic as it tends to make a less comfortable noise.

Also the conclusion pretty much says it all:

"The XL-1 is definitely quiet enough to contend with the best, but there's no need to go looking for it if one of our other recommendations is available."

Why go out of your way to find one, when you can get just as good if not better elsewhere more easily? You can get oem yate loons for around $3-$4. You can get S-Flex on newegg. Sure if you can walk down the street and pick up that specific model for cheep, then go for it, but id wager most people dont have that option.

Das_Saunamies · Post by **Das_Saunamies** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:24 am

The 92mm fan has the same blade design and material, worked its way onto the Recommended list fine.

The price tag is the reason. All the other recommended fans, bar Yate Loon(notice how these aren't recommended directly either), retail for double the price. Aknowledgement of similar performance at half the price would be justified.

If you're browsing for fans anyway, you won't go out of your way to find out if these are available. If another brand or make suffices, then pick that when it first meets you, but how much trouble is it really to consider the alternatives?

Had I come here as a novice I would have never tried the Blacksilents, instead drooling after the 20â‚¬ models. I'm glad that I did not: as good a guideline as is presented here, it is biased and self-reinforcing.

I'm done paying premium for stuff like Noctuas.