Case Fans - Blow In, Out or Combo?

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postul8or
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Case Fans - Blow In, Out or Combo?

Post by postul8or » Mon May 03, 2004 11:09 am

I built a new AMD machine for my friend, and I noticed that the case came with a fan in the top and side that were sucking air in. It actually has a couple of fans at the front sucking air in as well. The back of the case where you could also put two 80mm fans had a fair amount of air being pushed out from the pressure of the other fans sucking in...there are no out fans on the case other than in the PSU.

On my Intel machine at home I chose to disconnect the two stock 12V loudass fans on the side and top, which came with the case blowing out instead of in. I chose to put a low speed fan blowing out the case from the back instead.

What is the best approach from your experiences? All blowing in, all blowing out, a combination? To be clear, I'm not overclocking so what I would want is good cooling with minimal sound (lets say I want to use Panaflo Low flow everywhere).

I would be interested to hear about any experiments you have done. I am interested to see if sucking air in the front vs. the side or top is more effective overall. My hard drives are pretty warm, and I have always wondered about sucking air in the front of the case for that anyways. Unfortuately I'd have to jerryrig something because my case wasn't exactly built with a mount for a fan at the lower front of the case ;)

esn
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Re: Case Fans - Blow In, Out or Combo?

Post by esn » Mon May 03, 2004 12:24 pm

postul8or wrote: I would be interested to hear about any experiments you have done. I am interested to see if sucking air in the front vs. the side or top is more effective overall. My hard drives are pretty warm, and I have always wondered about sucking air in the front of the case for that anyways. Unfortuately I'd have to jerryrig something because my case wasn't exactly built with a mount for a fan at the lower front of the case ;)
At one point I thought I'd be smart and added an 80mm 12V unfiltered front intake fan to my system which at the time had only an 80mm 12V exhaust fan (in addition to the Antec PSU fan). Within a couple months or so I had fed enough dust into the VGA fan that it started to squeal and run slowly. I removed the intake fan, replaced the VGA fan (eventually with an Artic Cooling VGA Silencer) and undervolted the exhaust fan to about 8V. With current ambient temps up to ~26C, the cpu now gets up to 54C max when my son is gaming. (FYI the HSF is a Swiftech MCX-478V with 92mm Panaflo M1A at ~1700 RPM).

With this configuration (one exhaust fan plus PSU fan) the dust is more or less evenly distributed. Not favorable, but a workable comprimise.

When I build my next system I'll consider using a filtered intake fan instead of an unfilterd exhaust fan. Lot's to consider though: intake balanced against PSU exhaust and case venting; easily maintained filter in a more or less stock configuration (i.e. simple modding at most); efficient intake and airflow; noise from front fan; option to revert to an unfiltered exhaust if the filtered intake setup ...um... "sucks".

Oh, you mentioned HDD's. My Maxtor 80GB runs at about 44C max in a 5.25" bay mounted Smartdrive 2002 encluosure right now.

Gooserider
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Post by Gooserider » Mon May 03, 2004 1:45 pm

General recomendation seems to be to block off the side fans, and concentrate on on having good exhaust out the back, with unobstructed intake on te front pulling past the hard drives.
Gooserider

postul8or
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Post by postul8or » Mon May 03, 2004 7:06 pm

Yeah I guess I wondered if the top case fan would be better as blowing out because hot air rises. Then again, as much air as I can push out the back by my CPU and video card the better.

I have a second low flow Panaflow and I can try it in multiple locations....on the side, on the top, or a 2nd one in the back. I suppose as a "suck in" fan I could cram it in front of my hard drive.

I also wondered if the suck in technique would have dust ramifications. Sounds like it does. My friend's PC is pretty noisy admittedly, something I warned him about and he said he didn't care.

Btw, isn't 44 C a pretty hot temp for a hard drive. Mine is in the high 30's and I'm thinking that's too high. Over time anything over 35 will wear down your HD is what I have heard before.

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Post by nutball » Mon May 03, 2004 10:56 pm

postul8or wrote:Btw, isn't 44 C a pretty hot temp for a hard drive. Mine is in the high 30's and I'm thinking that's too high. Over time anything over 35 will wear down your HD is what I have heard before.
I'm not so sure about this last point. The problem with the Internet is that people make up random stuff and it gets propagated. Once it is propagated far enough that the original source becomes unclear, it tends to get accepted a gospel.

Moreover some folks seem to think temperature thresholds are some sort of absolute that apply to all components for all time. So for example whilst 75C might be on the verge of cooking a CPU, for a current-generation GPU (eg. NVIDIA GeForce FX) this only barely qualifies as warm.

For example, we did have a post in here from a Seagate engineer who said their drives were specced to run at 60C ambient if I recall correctly (though please don't take my word for, given what I've said above ;)!!!).

So yeah, maybe just maybe, 35C was bad for a hard-drive 5 years ago. Maybe technology has moved on. I don't know.

And maybe I'm talking too much, so I'll shut up now :)

esn
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Post by esn » Tue May 04, 2004 9:38 am

postul8or wrote:Btw, isn't 44 C a pretty hot temp for a hard drive. Mine is in the high 30's and I'm thinking that's too high. Over time anything over 35 will wear down your HD is what I have heard before.
44C getting up there, but the drive is spec'd at 55C. I am concerned in regards to what temps I will see when summer is in full swing. If the temps hit the upper 40's I'll have to rethink the Smartdrive enclousure.

Thomc
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Post by Thomc » Tue May 04, 2004 12:22 pm

Answering the original question, probably the best cooling is provided by using the fans for exhaust. Also, using a pair of fans (or three or more) in parallel provides more air flow than using the same fans in series. In other words, using two fans with both of them providing exhaust will provide more air flow than using the same two fans with one doing exhaust and the other doing intake.

Of course, this can be taken to illogical extremes - like mounting four or five case fans, with all of them (plus a high CFM power supply) providing exhaust. This type of ridiculous extreme would leave you with a high negative pressure area in the case, and the only intake available would be through small cracks and unused screw holes. This could result in very high speed air intakes, producing various interesting and amusing squeals and whistles that might be difficult to tune into anything approaching harmony. It would also turn your PC into a kind of relatively ineffective air filter - resulting in more filth being introduced to your system than you could reasonable expect to achieve with anything less than DSL or a cable modem. (Whoops - wrong kind of filth)

Of course, you could set up a hugely parallel exhaust fan system and try to seal all the little miscellaneous holes - which would probably result in sucking the sides of your case in against the motherboard. (Just kidding, no case fan produces the kind of air pressure needed to create this type of vacuum. In face, I'm not sure any fan does - they would probably just start to cavitate. To produce this type of vacuum, you would probably need a positive displacement device like an air pump. But perhaps I digress...)

If the computer is in a dusty area and you are interested in keeping the computer insides clean (and therefore alive), you may want to effectively filter the air coming into the computer. You can do this one of two ways. The easiest is to configure the system so you have intake fans providing more CFMs than the combined exhaust fans - and then make sure that the intake fans are filtered on the intake side. Dust should not come in to your system through the miscellaneous holes, because the air should be coming out through those holes instead of going in to them. You should be able to test this with smoke, although I have never tried it myself.

The other way to effectively filter the incoming air is to effective seal the case - get rid of all the miscellaneous holes - except for the exhaust fan ports and the area that you have designated as the intake port. Put a filter on the intake port, and let the exhaust fans pull the air in through the filter, and not in through any other spots. This is probably the most efficent and quietest way to cool your system. Be aware, however, that sealing your average PC case is a little like trying to plug the leaks in a sieve - only not as easy.

Finally, the question of hard drive operating temperatures. Sometimes, the answer is actually found by reading the manual - or barring that, to visit the web site. I checked five hard drive manufacturer's web sites - Fujitsu, IBM, Maxtor, Samsung and Seagate - and at each site I checked the technical specification document for multiple drives - 2.5" & 3.5" drives, 5400 & 7200 RPM UDMA/133 drives, 7200 RPM SATA drives, 10K & 15K SCSI drives. I checked current generation drives, and some drives going back as far as two or three generations. I didn't bother to check out any MFM, RLL or ESDI drives.

There were a few models (the Seagate 7200.7 drives smaller than 200GB, for instance) that listed their operating temperature range as 5-60°C. For the vast majority of drives, however (including the 200GB Seagate 7200.7 drives), the operating temperature range was listed as 5-55°C. This range (5-55°C) was so prevalent that I would not hesitate to say that is the range for ALL relatively modern 3.5" IDE or SCSI drives. For the sake of simplicity - and safety - I would simply ignore the few spec sheets that listed 60°C as the upper limit, and focus on 5-55°C as the recommended operating temperature range for modern 3.5" SCSI & IDE drives - and most (Fujitsu, Samsung, Seagate) 2.5" drives.

The HUGE exclusion to all of the above is IBM 2.5" drives. According to the data sheet for every IBM 2.5" drive I looked up, the maximum operating temp for these drives is 35°. Better keep your Thinkpad cool, Jack...

Of course, for any system you are working with, the best idea is to actually look up the specs for the hard drives in that system. For me, however, I'm going to use 5-55°C as the guide for my desktop drives for now.

All of that said, I have heard it said (or seen it written) that for every 10°C you can lower the operating temperature of an electronics component - within the device's recommended operating temperature - you double its projected life. So a 10,000 hour MTBF at 55°C would become a 20,000 hour MTBF at 45°C - and 40,000 hour MTBF at 35°C. I don't know if this is true, but it certainly has its proponents.

I do know that more something heats and cools, the more it expands and contracts - which is hard on strictly electroncs devices, let alone mechanical devices like drive motors and stepper motors. So I would say that as long as you don't cool the drives below ambient air temperature (you don't want moisture condensing on the drives), the cooler you can keep the drives (within their recommended operating range), the better.

Remember, though, when it comes to cooling the hard drive - or any other internal device - it is not necessary for the fans you mount to be intake or exhaust fans. If you are getting enough airflow to cool your system in general with your existing exhaust and power supplies fans, and you don't want to mount an intake fan (which either needs a filter or is going to bring in more dust) - you can mount a fan inside the case blowing on the hard drive. This will cool the drives - and if the fan is correctly mounted inside the system, it will be quieter than if it is mounted as an intake fan.

So for those of you still awake, thanks for coming to todays rambling rant, and be sure to drop in for our next epic length entry, tentatively titled "How to tell the difference between a duck - ice cream has no bones".

postul8or
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Post by postul8or » Wed May 05, 2004 11:12 am

Regarding Hard Drive Temperatures:

I agree with what you are all saying, the number is probably not the same for every hard drive out there. Heat in a CPU I view as a conductivity issue and a transistor stability issue. If you get a CPU too hot, it begins acting inconsistently. Lets face it, most people upgrade their machine every 2 or 3 years if they are serious users, so even if I work the CPU over I'm looking at 5 years (reducing life from 10 to 7 years doesn't matter to me!). That said, I've never overclocked a CPU in my life. I have assumed a hard drive is a little different than CPUs though. My thought it, if components in the hard drive expand past a certain point bad things will happen. I can't quite put my finger on the consequences of temperature on a hard drive in the same way I can for a CPU. Temporary or permanent damage to a CPU is one thing, losing the data is another!

If I can safely run a hard drive at 45 C, I'm very tempted to block off the air intakes in front of my hard drive to reduce noise escaping from the hard drive.

My concern isn't as much about the $200 if a hard drive crashes, it's more related to the diligence and extra backup capacity and effort required if you run your hard drive closer to the limits. If running at 35 C is 10% as likely to crash as at 45 C, then I would say 35 C is where I'd like to be! I'm glad that you looked up the specification of 5-55 C for most situations, but what are the ramifications of being on different ends of that range I guess is the next question.

About fans:

I will probably try an experiment with the fan in various places in the case and in different directions just to see how different it really is. I'm thinking in most situations that 2 fans put in decent spots will be better than 1 perfectly placed fan (ie. better that what I've got today). My main constraint today was not just cooling the area around the CPU and video card, but also helping out my hard drive a little too. Until I know more about the true temperature impacts for hard drives, I guess I will at least see the different temperatures that arise in the different configurations I could use. A configuration that cools 5 C at the expense of 1 C extra in another area is a good trade off is my theory.

Thomc
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Post by Thomc » Wed May 05, 2004 2:46 pm

First, I want to say that I agree with you Postul8or - losing a full hard drive is much worse than losing a CPU, even if the CPU costs more. That is why I currently have two intake fans blowing across my hard drives.

When I said I was going to use 5-55°C as the manufacturer's specified operating temperature range, I did not mean to imply that I would be satisfied if my system had hard drives operating at 55°C - I would not. That was why I stuck all that stuff in there about lower temp equaling longer projected life, and essentially saying that (within reason) the cooler the better.

Second, as far as what the specified "operating temperature range" actually means, I can't really speak for the drive manufacturers. What I would be willling to bet big money it means - at the very least - is that if a customer was returning an excessively large number of drives for failing while still under warranty, and the manufacturer challenged the warranty by claiming the customer was causing the drives to fail prematurely through misuse or abuse - well, under those circumstances they would have to find some other fault if you could show that the drives had never been operated at temperatures above 55°C - even if the drives had been running at 55°C for the constantly since being put in service.

This is sort of the minimum I would hope this means - the operating temperature range that will not actually void the factory warranty.

All of that being said, it is worth noting that for my particular drives (Seagate Barracuda 7200.7), Seagate lists the "service life" for all 7200.7 series drives as 5 years - but the longest warranty is 3 years, and some 7200.7 series drives only have a 1 year warranty. So the satisfaction of knowing that the warranty is not void as you run a hard drive at 55°C is proabably not as sweet as getting the full 5 year (or longer) "service life" from the drive because you took steps to keep it as cool as reasonably possible.

It may be worth noting that Seagate lists the projected MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures) on the 7200.7 series drives as being 600,000 "power-on" hours (25,000 days) - but only if the drive is operated at 25°C and nominal voltage.

It may also be worth noting that Maxtor has this to say:

"Hard drive reliability is closely related to temperature. By operational design, the ambient temperature is 86°F (30°C). Temperatures above 122°F (55°C) or below 41°F (5°C), decrease reliability. Directed airflow up to 150 linear feet/min. is recommended for high speed drives."

It seems to me that aiming for a drive operating temp of 25-30°C is the best bet for drive reliability and longevity.

Do I "practice what I preach"? Motherboard Monitor is currently reporting my C: drive at 29-30°C and the temp probe on one of the SATA drives in the RAID 0 array is reading 30-31°C. I'd like it to be a few degrees lower - but it's close enough for now. I'd like my system to be quieter too - but not at the expense of the intake fans that are keeping my drives cool.

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Post by frosty » Thu May 06, 2004 2:40 pm

You will prolly get a new pc before the hd dies.

postul8or
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Post by postul8or » Fri May 07, 2004 11:00 am

I tend to move over the biggest HD from my previous machine when I upgrade.

I wonder if you are the same frosty as the one from Newnet IRC.

Thomc
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Post by Thomc » Fri May 07, 2004 3:54 pm

Based on recent news from Intel, it is possible that I will be driving my current PC for longer than I previously thought. I have a 2.6C P4 on an Intel D875PBZ mobo. If the Prescott core CPUs are a thing of the past, it may be a while before Intel can make a convincing argument that I need a new processor.

As a result, the "heart" of my PC (CPU & mobo) may not become obsolete quite as soon as expected.

Also, like postul8or, when I build a new system, I quite often bring over my hard drive (or drives) - unless the drives have become badly obsolete.

I am running a pair of Seagate SATA 7200.7 drives in a RAID 0 array. Theoretically, that's a pretty fast drive set-up in the IDE world. I suspect that this RAID array is going to be fast enough for me to be using it for the next five years - possibly for the next decade.

And, of course, by running a RAID 0 array, I am putting two baskets worth of eggs in one basket, so if the basket breaks, I lose twice as many eggs.

RAID 0 stripes the data across both drives for better performance, but there is no redundancy or data protection of any sort. With RAID 0, you are twice (or 3 or 4 or however many drives are in the array) as likely to lose ALL your data due to a drive failure - because a failure of any individual drive will trash the data on ALL the drives.

As a result, I am more than ever anxious to give my hard drives EVERY opportunity to last a long, long time without problems.

postul8or
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Post by postul8or » Sat May 08, 2004 10:28 am

Thomc:

If you look at the historical trend, the rate of read and write on hard drives has gone up a lot....a lot of the advances is simply an increase in density on the disk platters. I would say that 2 or 3 years down the road you could buy 2 new hard drives, put them in a RAID setup and improve speeds a lot.

The thing you have to ask yourself is how important is speed. The only thing I've ever done where speed was critical was capturing video with my capture card. Otherwise, faster hard drives really just help your system boot faster, applications launch a little faster, and levels in games load faster!

Getting past speed for a moment....the reason I'd rather have my hard drives working as opposed to in he trash bin is that I can simply throw a bunch of mp3s on there for storage.

postul8or
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Post by postul8or » Sun Jul 18, 2004 2:32 pm

Finally got around to playing with one of my case fans.

Installed one at the hole at the top of my case. Motherboard temp went from about the 28 C range down to the 23-24 C range. CPU temp down maybe 1 or 2 C at full load. These might be conservative estimates as I think the room is a few degrees warmer since the weather has been warm the last week. The historical temps were more just off the top of my head from days that weren't as warm.

The case temp probe measures temp wherever the probe is. I stick it right on top of my 120 Gb Western Digital drive. Used to read about 96 F, now it's at about 85 F.

Next project will be do obstruct (plug completely or make it more of a maze) the air intake to try and block out sound from my hard drive. If that doesn't do much I will have to try suspending the drive and blowing air on the hard drive because it will be in too much of an isolated place. News to come...

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