Build the perfect fan - tell us what you want

mathias · Post by **mathias** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:13 am

How exactly would you custom order fans anyway? Who would be manufacturing them? How much control would you have over the components? Would you be able to custom order yate loon fans, and get them to make them with open corners, or to make 38mm thick fans in the 1000-2000 rpm range?(they only make ones above 2000rpm)

DryFire · Post by **DryFire** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:01 pm

I would like something that can stand stand a lot of impedment w/o causing too much noise. High static pressure (usually mean 38mm thickness).

Everything else I have to add pretty much matches what's already been posted.

frankgehry · Post by **frankgehry** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:41 pm

M,

My understanding is that if you, me, or BestByteInc wants to order 2000 or more fans, you can have one custom built to any spec you want. Of course the closer to an existing fan, the cheaper they will be. Since yate loon makes the 120, dynaeon the 92?, and bi-sonic the 80?, there are at least three manufacturers that can make a fan like a nexus. It shouldn't be hard for dynaeon to take one of their 120mm fans, make the corners any way you want, use any material, high quality bearings, quieter motors, extra quality control, spcr 3rd anniversary edition on the label, etc.. These fans could be custom built to a degree above and beyond nexus, because the nexus is almost identical to the standard yate loon 120. So any speed range is possible with a 38mm fan, but bestbyteinc is going to want to order 2000 fans. So unless they can sell 2000 38mm fans with low rpms, they probably won't do it in the first offering. But how hard can it be to put a quiet motor and hub from a 25mm fan into an existing 38 mm fan frame. I'm pretty sure that they will take input from this thread , advice from the manufacturer they choose, and other markets, and produce a single fan that will have simple options like color, connections, speed range, etc.. Adding another model like a 38mm fan would add to the cost per unit. If they see a 38mm quiet fan as a top seller, or the mfg. can do it adding just a little cost it might be possible, but since its quantity that allows customization, I don't think they will offer a 38mm fan, just like I don't think nexus can offer a 38mm fan and make money from it. - FG

DrCR · Post by **DrCR** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:40 pm

Is no one else in want of a high-pressure, SPCR-quiet fan.

If I want a quiet 25mm solution, I can get a Nexus. It's pricey, but it's there. And if I'm quick on my feet, I could grab a box of Yate Loons on the cheap before a temp vendor runs out.

But if I want a 38mm or even thicker, anything for high pressure, I'm left only with an AC option.

BestByte, good to see your ratings are up. You guys used to be ranked pretty low (when I checked a long while back I've been an IT-Procurement guy for ~7-8 years now), which I thought was a pitty since you're prices have always been rather good.

Let me give it to you straight. Bling dosen't sell fans at SPCR. Perhaps it can be a plus for some, but constantly quiet is what we're looking for. Quietest to be exact. Even if you just sold a fan that was only a little better than the Nexus and kept the quality control really tight, then you just make yourself the SPCR recommendation over the Nexus.

If you can keep the price premium low, then you could have people flocking to your door. As, though I might not be able to speak for all here, but I don't pay the price premium for the Nexus for all my machines. If the price was lower for them, that's all I would buy.

My challenge... make a 120x25mm fan that's quieter than the Nexus offering, while maintaining high CFM (around 60+) like the Globe S1202512L-3M so we can recommend the fan to even those who have not been convinced that low CFMs are sufficent for a well layed-out, tidy machine. Oh, and if you could have good pressure ratings like the Papst 4412 (25mm, apples to apples here), that would be cool too.

An easy job, I know.

Oh, and if you could offer a thick (38mm+) sister product with even better, superb pressure ratings, for us watercoolers (i.e. fans for raditors/heatercores), that would be super awesome too.

Good luck!

DrCR

__________

dano · Post by **dano** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:03 am

How about the blades/body of this sunon, but the motor of a yate loon/ nexus? Shouldent be too hard

http://www.svc.com/svcompucycle/kd1212pmb3-86.html

frankgehry · Post by **frankgehry** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:43 am

Then you would have a D1203812L Suloon. Yate loon makes a 38mm fan - its the one in the seasonic s12 500w.

pm_ · Post by **pm_** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:52 am

I've seen several things I agree with (this is ALL in regards to 120mm fans):

frankgehry wrote:
Constant spd.
No temp. control
RPM sensing
Locked rotor alarm
Auto restart
3 pin or 4 pin with PWM fans
Lead length - 12"
lead colors - yellow, red, black
LED - no

Those all look like good specs to me. 3 pin is a MUST as well as RPM sensing. For RPM, my preference is at least 1600 and at most 2000. I use my bios to adjust the speed of my fans.

badger wrote:
I saw it mentioned before but I want to make sure it's emphasized:

No corners I have to saw through to use some rubber isolating screws like the Nexus 120mm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Open corners are a must!

Open corners make life much easier. I've used my dremel to cut corners on two 120mm fans. The first took about an hour, the 2nd maybe 35-40 minutes. The 3rd will probably take less time, but it's still time I'd rather spend doing other things. Plus it is a bit dangerous. I did get a piece of plastic in my eye, but fortunately I didn't dammage anything and was able to rinse it out (I was wearing glasses for the record, and I used a lower RPM setting for the rest of the work I had to do).

I also agree in that it needs to undervolt well, with no clicking noises etc.

jamesavery22 · Post by **jamesavery22** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

Anyone hear back from Bestbyteinc.com? Guessing since his post count is still 1 the answer is a "No." Wondering if he PMed anyone. Curious to see if anyone will actualy persue this that has the ability to massproduce anything.

frankgehry · Post by **frankgehry** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:10 pm

J,

You can email them at sales. I haven't heard anything but I've asked them about other things and someone knowledgeable always replies. - FG

vertigo · Post by **vertigo** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:50 pm

Here's my 2c on the issue.

For a fan to sell it needs some bling bling. It is hard to convince buyers that this plain black fan is 'really really good because it spins slowly and is quiet at 5v'. Usually this element comes by way of UV reactive colours or LED's, but the materials used here are less good. You can say what you want about the sicky orange colour of the Nexus fans, I think it set them apart. The hook on seeing one is 'gee, look at the colour'. A plain black fan has no hook, no matter what the pamphlet says.

If a custom fan were to be made, it would need to stand out or to have an endorsement. The SPCR membership seems highly critical, and certainly uses different fans for different purposes. Also I tend to think that the relationship between the shape of the fan blades and the choppy wind noise they make is contingent on the pressure in the system. Surely a fan very quiet for high negative pressures will be less quiet in a low-volume neutral pressure application.

Basically what I am saying is that I don't know that anyone can say for sure that even if a manufacturer custom designed a fan it would be widely used. Any fan design will be a compromise, but inevitably people will choose the fans more suited to their application. A spread is better than a mean.

In this regard, I think the niche for a custom fan would be where there is a lack of suitable fans currently. This means a quiet, high pressure/cfm 38mm fan with good undervolting performance and reliable starting as low as 600RPM.

acaurora · Post by **acaurora** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:47 pm

The funny thing is, that guy hasn't replied to ANY of the posts.

StarfishChris · Post by **StarfishChris** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:08 pm

In that case, may I suggest pink plastic?

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:11 pm

They're going to take the most popular requests and build it for us, assuming they still want to. Since everyone here seems to want something different and the only thing that we all want in common may be something that they can't guarantee, I wouldn't be too surprised if they decide that we're not worth it.

m0002a · Post by **m0002a** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:49 pm

Keep in mind that the OP does not make fans. Neither does Nexus, Thermaltake, MadDog, Vantec, SilenX, etc.

Yate Loon, Panasonic, EBM-Papst, Sunon, Delta, and a few others do make fans.

If there is some kind of consensus that indicates a significant potential market, the OP may forward the request to his suppliers in Asia and see if they come up with something. But I don't know if it is cost effective or even possible to come up with what we all want--a fan with relatively high output that makes absolutely no motor noise at any speed, and only minimal air turbulence noise. At the very least, any new fan should exceed the CFM output of the best currently available fans and be equally quiet.

Regarding the orange Nexus: it was a turnoff for me, but I was willing to put aesthetics aside for something that is quiet.

Green Shoes · Post by **Green Shoes** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:23 pm

m0002a wrote:But I don't know if it is cost effective or even possible to come up with what we all want--a fan with relatively high output that makes absolutely no motor noise at any speed, and only minimal air turbulence noise. At the very least, any new fan should exceed the CFM output of the best currently available fans and be equally quiet.

In other words, something that defies the laws of physics. We're starting to sound like women here

I'm sorry, if there are any women reading this post, my wife already smacked me for that comment so don't worry about it.

Seriously, though, I wouldn't doubt it at all if he/she just abandoned this post....we've created a pretty tall order. I don't have a degree in mechanical engineering, but I imagine it would take a serious amount of R&D to create something that pushes more CFM than a Nexus/Yate Loon at a price point comparable to them. I don't know about you, but I'm not gonna shell out $50 for a fan unless it can file my tax return.

acaurora · Post by **acaurora** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:24 pm

*waves a paper fan and fills out a W-4 ;P

$50 plz!

frankgehry · Post by **frankgehry** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:53 pm

Designer line -

StarfishChris · Post by **StarfishChris** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:35 am

Thanks frank, does it come in a sleeve bearing variety?

I agree that it's a tall order, but then we were asked for the perfect fan. Everyone knows it doesn't exist and that it wouldn't be perfect for everybody.

I would still like to see a 38mm thick fan that's just as quiet as most thinner ones, though.

frankgehry · Post by **frankgehry** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 6:36 am

Both JML and Bi-sonic have 38mm models for about $15. I have the 25mm models

efcoins · Post by **efcoins** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:52 am

Thickness I have not tried a 38mm, but would like to, they are not sold by many PC suppliers
Fan color Black is fine
Bearing type whaterver is quieter, probably Sleeve
RPM 120mm - 1200 rpm
92mm - 1500 rpm
80mm - 1800 rpm
(a bit more than Nexus)
Constant RPM
Temperature control no
RPM signal output Yes, some motherbords demand at least one RPM signal
Locked rotor alarm No
Autorestart no
Power connector both 3 pin and molex would be good, but either is OK
Lead length 20cm
Lead wire colors red, black, blue (RPM)
LED no

Fans are frequently run of some sort of fan controller, at reduced voltage. A low starting voltage is therefore important, if it starts RELIABLY at 5 volts even when the fan is 2 years old, then that would be very good. Noise/performance at at 7v is just as important as at 12V

2 year lifelime is enough for me.

HAHA · Post by **HAHA** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:56 am

I would think that the most silent and efficient design would be a counter rotating, dual prop fan assembly. The idea is to achieve something like the DuoProp design used by Volvo-Penta for marine propulsion. The counter rotating propellers achieve higher efficiency by reducing turbulence. All it would require is to design a left hand propeller that would be able to spin in the opposite direction.

I would guess that, just like with the marine propulsion units, the efficiency will go up by 10 - 20%. The noise will also go down because of less turbulence. In the Volvo-Penta drive, they often use different size for right hand and left hand propellers. You often see 4 blades on the inner screw and 3 on the outer. Maybe this isn't necessary on the computer fans because they will be stacked, separate units rather than mechanically coupled to each other. The same effect could possibly be had by regulating the RPMs between the fans.

This would be a real improvement over existing designs and it wouldn't cost more to develop than making a new propeller. They only need to mirror an existing propeller.

I have been waiting for this to happen for years...
Who will be the first ?

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:31 am

HAHA....I've no doubt such a fan could be made, but at what cost? Who would buy a $50 case fan except for a few crazies. Like SPCR members.

Realistically I think there are fan designs that could work for us....that haven't been implemented, that could be made for a reasonable price.

How about fan blades with a variable pitch?

Ever heard a fan with a staggered blade design?

These things are out there...but not for computers yet.

HAHA · Post by **HAHA** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:22 am

Well - it will cost exactly as much as two fans because that's what it is.

The "DuoProp" will be one standard right handed fan, stacked on top of a standard left handed fan.

They only have to develop a mirrored propeller and then they can sell left handed fans as a standard produkt. Enthusiasts can then buy them separately or in pair with a right handed fan. The only thing required is some more space and some longer screws connecting the two.

Can it be any simpler to advance the state of the art ?

mathias · Post by **mathias** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:40 am

The counter rotating fan has been done. Asside from delta, there's the cooler master dual storm fan, and some papsts rotate the opposite way.

HAHA · Post by **HAHA** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:50 pm

Thanks for the info !

Looking at the pictures of the Cooler Master dual storm, it seems like they have made optimizations by giving the downstream second fan an other type of blades. There are more blades and it also looks like they have got a higher pitch.

You mention there are left handed Papst fans. Do you know how to identify them by product number ?

Anyway - my suggestion to the vendor asking for feedback in the beginning of this thread, is:

"Copy" the best current designs like Nexus, etc. and make both right and left handed versions of them.

pony-tail · Post by **pony-tail** » Wed May 04, 2005 1:57 pm

The Cooler Master dual storm fan is a noisy low performing gimmick - Aimed soly at "bling" buyers - even if the idea is good the implementation is not.

jamesavery22 · Post by **jamesavery22** » Thu May 05, 2005 8:41 am

HAHA wrote:I would think that the most silent and efficient design would be a counter rotating, dual prop fan assembly. The idea is to achieve something like the DuoProp design used by Volvo-Penta for marine propulsion. The counter rotating propellers achieve higher efficiency by reducing turbulence. All it would require is to design a left hand propeller that would be able to spin in the opposite direction.

I would guess that, just like with the marine propulsion units, the efficiency will go up by 10 - 20%
...

Counter rotating blades are more suited to propulsion. Turbulance after the flow passes through the blades is less than conventional fans, yes. But turbulance around the blades is a lot more. But besides that, the main advantage counter rotating blades has is the focused air flow.
if you could actually see the flow that comes out the end of a normal fan it would look sort of like a cone.
If you could see the flow going through the props of an old Russian Bear bomber it would look more like a cylinder.
Thats where you get the increase in efficiency, in thrust. You have less air going out to the sides and more going straight back so you get more forward thrust.
in our world we really dont care about that. Anything we have a fan blow on is right next to the fan or is shrouded. Or we just have the fan sucking through something and we dont care how the air is exhausted.

Delta has a few of these, they are loud as anything.

edit------------

And oh yeah I was asking if anyone heard back from the author of this thread because if no one has then it seems sort of pointless to try and give someone the plans to something if they never intend to build it let alone listening. Its nice that bestbyte has nice customer support and all. but pretty shady when one of their reps makes an appearence like this then just leaves us all hanging.

jamesavery22 · Post by **jamesavery22** » Thu May 05, 2005 9:39 am

Speaking of which, this guy used those dual motor deltas:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/sho ... ge=1&pp=25

Dude must be deaf.

Deltas PDF:

http://www.delta.com.tw/product/cp/dcfa ... series.pdf

Build the perfect fan - tell us what you want

Custom made

DuoProp ?

Re: DuoProp ?