QUIET FANS... WHICH ONES?

gintasr · Post by **gintasr** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:46 am

I ordered 2 Panasonic Panaflo FBA12G12M 120mm Hydro Wave from newegg.com

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6835180081

These fans are incredibily loud... sounds like a jet engine starting.

I am using the new Antec P150 case and need 120mm fan recomendations.

Im running:
Asus A8N-SLI Premium
AMD 3500+ w/ Thermalright SI-120
WD Raptor 74GB
eVGA 7800GTX

vertigo · Post by **vertigo** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:59 am

Those fans run at 2100rpm and are rated at 35dBA. You'll want fans that run at around 1000rpm. Typically you'll slow them down as low as they can reliably go so perhaps they will end up spinning at about 800rpm or so.

I don't have recommendations though. I'm sure other people will have recommendations. Everyone likes Nexus, of course.

vertigo · Post by **vertigo** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:18 am

My bad, SPCR has a recommended fan list here.

cpemma · Post by **cpemma** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:46 am

gintasr wrote:I ordered 2 Panasonic Panaflo FBA12G12M ...

It's a mistake to think Panaflo = quiet and Delta = noisy per se. Panaflo models ending in 'L' are low-noise, but 'M' = medium, both flow and noise.

gintasr · Post by **gintasr** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:56 am

thanks for the replies guys!

Ordered some nexus 1000rpm and a few zalman speed controls.

dutchman · Post by **dutchman** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:44 pm

Regarding the "quietness" of cooling fans, it's best to check the specs vs. model number online. In general, it's better to use double ball bearing units versus single ball and one sleeve. Never, ever, use a sleeve bearing fan for critical cooling. For every 10 Deg. C over 25 Deg. C you go, you will reduce the lifetime of the sleeve by 50%. The garbage available today in electronics super stores is truly a scandal...check reviews of fans before you buy.

The hydro-dynamic bearings have been around for more than 10 years. Mitsubishi and Panasonic (now part of NMB) developed this bearing and promoted the heck out of it without much success...even though Mitsubishi's research (I've seen it) proved that the lifetime was equivalent to that of ball bearing units, American engineers had been bludgeoned by years of "ball bearing-only" marketing....they are less $ than a ball bearing unit but more than a standard sleeve and are more susceptible to heat than ball bearings, but better than standard sleeve designs.

Yes, ball bearing fans that use higher-grade (closer tolerance) bearings are initially more noisy than a sleeve counterpart. But, once the bearings run-in they will provide a more consistent noise level over 80 - 100,000 hrs of life (thats about 9 to 11.5 years). As sleeves volatize their lubricants, the sintered material glazes and you get the squeeling that is the harbinger of fan failure. Avoid plastic bearings.

Very few folks run their systems with internal temps at 25 Deg C (77 F), so err on the side of reliablility when buying a case fan. Use double ball bearing from NMB, Sunon, Delta, Mechatronic or equivalent.

Avoid like the plague any power supply that uses a sleeve bearing fan (cost to manufacture is about $.85) - you are asking for trouble within a year - if you are lucky.

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:52 pm

dutchman,
Just look around in these forums for multiple examples of systems running fine with PSU's containing Yate Loon D12SM-12 fans. The number of Seasonics, Nexus and Fortron PSU's in which these fans fails within a year is negligable. How many people have their Nexus case fans going bad within two years? Negligable too.

Your advise is just paranoia. You are applying "wisdom" used for industrial high reliabillity equipment running 24/7 to consumer products that only run approx 8 hours a day and will be replaced within 3~5 years because they are "obsolete".

frankgehry · Post by **frankgehry** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:16 pm

seasonic didn't start using adda fans because they were quieter.

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:32 pm

frankgehry wrote:seasonic didn't start using adda fans because they were quieter.

No, they were pretty clear why they did that. The Yate Loons didn't start reliably at 4.5V. This was a problem with brand new PSU's. So it has nothing to do with the aging of the fan or the type of bearing.

GHz · Post by **GHz** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:13 pm

Not to mention that the life of a bearing can vary depending on orientation of the fan. Seasonic is likely well aware that sleeve-bearing fans wear out faster when mounted horizontally; possibly this was a reason (or one of them) for choosing the more costly ADDA fan.

Rory Buszka · Post by **Rory Buszka** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:34 pm

My Fortron 300W is in its third year. Its Yate Loon D12SL-12 fan is continuing just fine, and it's still one of the quietest power supplies I've experienced, while still providing great airflow in my case. It's one of the best purchases I've ever made for my computer. It runs 24/7 whenever I'm at school, which is most of the year.

Aleksi · Post by **Aleksi** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:51 pm

dutchman, I personally pretty much agree with you. I will not use anything else than Panaflo/NMB/Papst for "critical cooling", like the PSU. I've made quite a few posts about fan/bearing lifetime here on SPCR.

If a person looks up proper data about sleeve bearings instead of reading marketing BS like "MTTF xxx xxx hours" they will see how fastly the lifetime drops at higher temps. Running generic sleeve bearings even at 40C rarely is a long term solution.

Just so you now, you're posting on a forum that is a Nexus marketing campaign.

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:27 am

Aleksi wrote:If a person looks up proper data [...] they will see how fastly the lifetime drops at higher temps.

And if they studied the matter even more they could note that the lifetime extends when the fan is run at a slower speed than the one it is rated for. And they might notice that in a modern 120mm PSU the fan is in the path of the air intake and not in the hotter exhaust air. So it gets about the same heatload as the typical case exhaust fan.

Aleksi · Post by **Aleksi** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:00 am

Tibors,

First off, I was not commenting on your post. (Although I disagree with the reason for the ADDA / Loonie swap on the Seasonics.)

If there is a case fan exhausting hot air then naturally a PSU with 120mm doesn't have to exhaust all the hot air alone, and as you say it doesn't "see" the heat generated by the PSU itself. But, the heat generated by the PSU is quite small compared to the rest of the system. Even as an "intake" fan it does see elevated temps.

There are various twists to this subject: people can and do use a 120mm PSU also as the only exhaust fan. Then it does see the whole heat generated by the system excluding PSU. If we're talking about the 80mm PSU, then the added heat from the PSU is also counted in, but the temps can be lower with proper case airflow. Yadda yadda yadda. It depends on the PSU, case airflow, components etc.

But for company making PSUs that are going to different component configurations and places around the world using a sleeve bearing fan is not the brightest idea.

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:15 am

As you say there are many twists. And basically that is what makes the post by dutchman a stupid advice. People come here describing destinct problems, so for each problem you can tailor your advice. It is not necessary to resort to general "truths". Especially when they are based at the eternally recurring "at 10° temp rise the life halves", which is not applicable in a lot of the cases it is quoted.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:44 am

Running generic sleeve bearings even at 40C rarely is a long term solution.

Just so you now, you're posting on a forum that is a Nexus marketing campaign.

To address your first point, does it necessarily have to be a long-term solution? Considering how cheap sleeve bearing fans are, and that they are generally quieter than ball bearing fans, many here will opt for a quieter fan that they have to replace more often, rather than a noisier fan with a longer working lifetime.

To address your second point, yes, many on this site perhaps promote Nexus fans to the exclusion of all other makes, while good fans with a similar noise profile to the Nexus fans are neglected, but this is because Nexus fans consistently, reliably, achieve SPCR levels of quietness. Now I am all in favour of more quiet fans being discovered, how could I not be? But there are SO many fans out there, and marketing materials are SO unreliable, you can understand why people cling to the one brand they KNOW will provide them with quiet. Also Nexus products in general have silence as their goal and the company's ethos and branding emphasise this, so a certain amount of brand loyalty is created.

Are there other fans as quiet as Nexus, at lower cost? Undoubtedly, yes. However, so far I have only found one make of fan that satisfies this criteria, and that is the Yate Loons, and in my experience they are not as consistently good as the Nexus fans.

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:57 am

Aleksi wrote:
Just so you now, you're posting on a forum that is a Nexus marketing campaign.

Complete bullshit.

The Nexus fans happen to work and are generally available.

In the pre-Nexus days you'd have said SPCR was a "Panaflo Marketing Campaign" and that would have been just as wrong. You go with what works.

kenyee · Post by **kenyee** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:01 am

out of curiosity, anyone know the MTBF for the Nexus/YateLoon? I haven't seen any specs on it.

FWIW, the Akasa Amber claims 80K hrs. It does seem to have quite a bit of wind turbulence noise, but it's totally drowned out when my BenQ DVD drive is spinning

dutchman · Post by **dutchman** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:25 am

Tibors wrote:dutchman,
Just look around in these forums for multiple examples of systems running fine with PSU's containing Yate Loon D12SM-12 fans. The number of Seasonics, Nexus and Fortron PSU's in which these fans fails within a year is negligable. How many people have their Nexus case fans going bad within two years? Negligable too.

Your advise is just paranoia. You are applying "wisdom" used for industrial high reliabillity equipment running 24/7 to consumer products that only run approx 8 hours a day and will be replaced within 3~5 years because they are "obsolete".

Tibors....Say, good to find another Nederlander...My father was born in Buiksloot, just a 25 minute walk from the Damrak, Amsterdam..to the East.

Regarding "Paranoia." No, just 30 years of experience in the marketplace...If you want junk, then procure at will any of the sleeve bearing fans that are available....Garbage in and garbage out...simple equation. If you plan on tossing the system after two years, then fine. There is a good market for re-grind and scrapped pre-plate 20 gauge steel. My experience is that sleeve product would be fine for the average buyer if the plan is to buy a disposable computer and never upgrade. But, overclockers and anyone who wants reliability in their respective systems ought not to have confidence in a sleeve product. Fan blades load up with gunk and dust, and, as these impellers are not dynamically balanced (like EBM does to the majority of its product line) the sleeve bearing cannot handle the wobble....At IBM and Intel we determined that whatever the vendor advertised as its main feature or benefit, that is the item that we tested/evaluated first....we found that like in other posts, the specs portrayed did not reflect reality. All H-P personal computers used double ball in their p/s and main enclosure applications (Panasonic until the company got high-and-mighty on H-P, then it was Delta's forever).
Also, be careful in the operation of fans at lower voltages regardless of bearing style...As most fans are spec'd at +/- 12 -15% of rated voltage, running fans at lower than rated current tends to heat up the guts, which reduces reliability.

So, if the individual wants to buy a white box product labeled with his or her favorite mpu and superstore re-bags, then happy days.

Also, most suppliers don't have enough actual real-time test data on their products as far as lifetime of operation is concerned...most use the L10 calculation.....it's all in the equations used to calculate lifetime based on the specifications/tolerances of the components used to make the fan/drive circuitry/bearings.

With warmest regards,

Dutch

Aleksi · Post by **Aleksi** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:38 am

jaganath wrote: To address your first point, does it necessarily have to be a long-term solution? Considering how cheap sleeve bearing fans are, and that they are generally quieter than ball bearing fans, many here will opt for a quieter fan that they have to replace more often, rather than a noisier fan with a longer working lifetime.

Hi Jaganath,

in my post I'm also talking about PSUs. I think most people want a long-term solution for their PSUs. For case fans the swap is easy.

Ralf Hutter wrote: Complete bullshit. The Nexus fans happen to work and are generally available. In the pre-Nexus days you'd have said SPCR was a "Panaflo Marketing Campaign" and that would have been just as wrong. You go with what works.

Hello Ralf and bullshit to you too,

Jaganath got my point, you didn't. How many users have Nexus fans as case / CPU fans, quite a few when you look at the general gallery. They probably get the most visibility on these forums by the users. That is what I mean by "a Nexus marketing campaign".

Marketing is what helps sales, brings visibility to the the product. Marketing is if you link to a vendor's webshop for specs.

Dutchman,

amongst this polite conversation we seem to have forgotten an SPCR tradition, welcoming new members. It's always nice to have people with knowledge and real experience joining SPCR.

So,

WELCOME TO SPCR!!

Aris · Post by **Aris** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:49 am

you know when i first found this place, i was currently running panaflo/papst sleeve fans pretty exclusivly. i was then tempted towards the popular "nexus" line, but after talking with a few very knoladgable people in the industry have thus concluded that i should stick with panaflo/papst/NMB sleeve fans. You just cant beat the build quality. I've been hearing some bad things about panaflo/nmb reguarding consistancy, but havnt heard anything like this reguarding papst. So i'll buy panaflo/NMB if i can get it from a source that tests individual fans to verify they work properly and are quiet, or i'll just go with papst fans from now on.

and just for the record. ive had a sleeve bearing 120mm papst fan in a horizontal postion inside my seasonic powersupply, running 24/7, as the ONLY heat exhaust for the entire case for over 2 years now without any inclination of wear yet. i dont plan on having the system for more than another year or two, so from my own personal experience, i dont see any problem with useing sleeve fans in this manner. at least not when you use a quality product.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:07 am

How many users have Nexus fans as case / CPU fans, quite a few when you look at the general gallery. They probably get the most visibility on these forums by the users. That is what I mean by "a Nexus marketing campaign".

Aleksi, I think what Ralf took issue with was the implication behind your comment that SPCR is somehow a "front" for Nexus PR efforts, or that SPCR is somehow in the pay of Nexus and in return for this compensation promotes Nexus fans regardless of whether or not they are a quality product. You are quite right that Nexus will certainly be pleased that so many silence-seeking users use their products, and that this usage is given high visibility on a website such as this; it is free publicity, and as we all know there is no such thing as bad publicity. However, SPCR is not the result of a formal marketing effort by Nexus, but rather is simply the result of making a good product. Before the Internet, this would have manifested itself as word-of-mouth recommendations between silence-oriented consumers; SPCR is simply the 21st-century version of this.

Aleksi · Post by **Aleksi** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:32 am

The Papst Sintec sleeve bearing really shouldn't be mixed with generic sleeve bearing. It's a passive hydrodynamic bearing, that has much longer lifetime even in higher temps when compared to generic sleeves. OK, it's classified a sleeve bearing, but it's a quality one like Aris pointed out.

(the clone FDB are in fact passive hydrodynamic like Papst, but too small and without a similar oil supply. However, legally it is OK.)

Sizzle · Post by **Sizzle** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:36 am

jaganath wrote:
How many users have Nexus fans as case / CPU fans, quite a few when you look at the general gallery. They probably get the most visibility on these forums by the users. That is what I mean by "a Nexus marketing campaign".
Aleksi, I think what Ralf took issue with was the implication behind your comment that SPCR is somehow a "front" for Nexus PR efforts, or that SPCR is somehow in the pay of Nexus and in return for this compensation promotes Nexus fans regardless of whether or not they are a quality product. You are quite right that Nexus will certainly be pleased that so many silence-seeking users use their products, and that this usage is given high visibility on a website such as this; it is free publicity, and as we all know there is no such thing as bad publicity. However, SPCR is not the result of a formal marketing effort by Nexus, but rather is simply the result of making a good product. Before the Internet, this would have manifested itself as word-of-mouth recommendations between silence-oriented consumers; SPCR is simply the 21st-century version of this.

Additionaly, people here like quiet AND cheap. While Panaflo is cheap, there are consistency of quality issues. Papst just ain't cheap, and not well available. Nexus is relatively cheap compared to the Papst. Given the opportunity to go back in time, I bet many users here with Nexus 120mm fans would have the cheaper Yate Loon's Nexus relabels instead.

Aris · Post by **Aris** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:47 am

Sizzle wrote:Additionaly, people here like quiet AND cheap. While Panaflo is cheap, there are consistency of quality issues. Papst just ain't cheap, and not well available. Nexus is relatively cheap compared to the Papst. Given the opportunity to go back in time, I bet many users here with Nexus 120mm fans would have the cheaper Yate Loon's Nexus relabels instead.

i know you just didnt say Nexus is cheep.

heres some links for you:

Papst 120mm: http://www.directron.com/4412fgl.html

Nexus 120mm: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/nexus120mm.html

Sizzle · Post by **Sizzle** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:47 am

Aris wrote:
Sizzle wrote:Additionaly, people here like quiet AND cheap. While Panaflo is cheap, there are consistency of quality issues. Papst just ain't cheap, and not well available. Nexus is relatively cheap compared to the Papst. Given the opportunity to go back in time, I bet many users here with Nexus 120mm fans would have the cheaper Yate Loon's Nexus relabels instead.
i know you just didnt say Nexus is cheep.

heres some links for you:

Papst 120mm: http://www.directron.com/4412fgl.html

Nexus 120mm: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/nexus120mm.html

To get a new Papst model, will cost you a lot more than $17. And it's still $2 more than the Nexus.

Aleksi · Post by **Aleksi** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:11 pm

Sizzle wrote:...While Panaflo is cheap, there are consistency of quality issues...

Cheap Panaflos mean surplus or reject fans which obviously have quality issues. That's the problem especially in north America with Panaflos.

New Panaflos / NMB-MAT (non-surplus, non-reject, from the factory, that do have consistent quality) naturally cost more. Around and above the prices you pointed out for the Papst and Nexus.

Rory Buszka · Post by **Rory Buszka** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:48 pm

Some are reporting the Akasa Amber fans to be a good quiet option if you're paranoid about bearing failure. Every dorm room I have ever been in has been extremely dusty, so I've tortured my Panaflo and Yate Loon fans with all the dirty mess I can, but the panaflos at 5V are still chugging along, and so is the Yate Loon, all without noticeable noise or anything.

Aris · Post by **Aris** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:08 pm

Sizzle wrote:To get a new Papst model, will cost you a lot more than $17. And it's still $2 more than the Nexus.

how do you know its not new? 4412FGL is still a current model produced by papst. even if it isnt new whats the difference? ive heard no reported problems with consistancy issue's related to papst fans. so even if their manufactur date is a bit dated, their still good.

and 2 bucks is hardly an amount to argue over, considering the quality upgrade from one to the other.

Your original post was to say papst is not cheep, and yet you think nexus is cheep. so you think $2 makes the difference between a cheep fan and an expensive fan? I for one have seen numerous posts that will contradict your thought that nexus is cheep. Granted Papst isnt any better in this reguard, but it is a far superior product and thus its price is justified, unlike nexus.

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:59 pm

Aris wrote:ive heard no reported problems with consistancy issue's related to papst fans.

Search a bit on SPCR and you will find them.

Sometime ago Papst moved their production to Hungary. Result: lots of clicking fans. I have a few of those in 80mm size. There are reports that this problem is fixed in newer fans. Old fans (clicking) have a white Papst label, new ones have a blue/white EBM-Papst label. So old stock of Papst fans is definately something to watch out for.

QUIET FANS... WHICH ONES?

QUIET FANS... WHICH ONES?

Re: QUIET FANS... WHICH ONES?

Paranoia?