swap Scythe S-Flex for new Slipstream fan?

gb115b · Post by **gb115b** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:37 am

hi i currently have 4 Scythe S-flex E model (1200RPM) fans...

they normally run around 700RPM ish to keep my system at acceptable temps.

would anyone recommend changing to slipstream fans to get more cooling at the same noise level (or equivalent cooling with less noise?)

if so which model?

AuraAllan · Post by **AuraAllan** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:44 am

If your temps are fine and your satisfied with the noiselevel I wouldnt recommend "wasting" money on new fans.

gb115b · Post by **gb115b** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:59 am

i'm never satisfied

elpibe10 · Post by **elpibe10** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:18 am

Yes, do it. I can assure you that you'll be glad you did.

I switched from S-Flex E to Minebea Low to Slipstream (all running at 800rpm) and have observed lower noise and better temps with each round of change.

Be prepared to replace the fans annually though as sleeve-bearing fans get noisy rather quickly.

gb115b · Post by **gb115b** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:36 am

what slipstream model did you use?

elpibe10 · Post by **elpibe10** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:49 am

gb115b wrote:what slipstream model did you use?

800rpm version. Finally able to do without any fan controller.

thejamppa · Post by **thejamppa** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:03 am

I'll get tomorrow 800 rpm and 500 rpm models of slipstreams. I intend to change my undervolted nexus to Slipstream. But many hardcore silencer in here swordns slipstreams are quiet. I hope SPCR will soon get them to tested.

AuraAllan · Post by **AuraAllan** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:14 am

gb115b wrote:i'm never satisfied

Well..... do it then.

JacksonDane · Post by **JacksonDane** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:53 pm

I'm getting better temps in my P182 with a 800rpm Slipstream w/ mobo control on the rear exhaust and 800rpm Slipstream @ 5v on top exhaust than with Nexus 1000rpms in the same set up. It's quieter with the Slipstreams too! It's only about 1-2c difference.

mkygod · Post by **mkygod** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:04 pm

I am in a similar predicament. I have S-flex 1200rpm model and need better CFM performance without increasing the noise.

Is there anything comparable to the Slipstream in terms of CFM/RPM efficiency that uses ball bearings? Maybe the Scythe Minebea?

I don't have good experiences with sleeve bearing fans; quiet at first but noisy later on. I run my computer almost 24/7, so I can imagine going through the Slipstreams rather quickly if i were to get it.

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:01 pm

Hello,

Ball bearings are no guarantee of long life. Good bearings last longer than poor bearings.

I have an old Fortron Source 300watt PSU with a medium speed Yate Loon (this was the very first exposure to Yate Loon that we had!), that lasted for at least 3 1/2 years, run 24/7. It got a low growling noise that let me know that it was worn. I replaced it with a GlobalWin NCB (which has a ceramic sleeve bearing!) and it has run for a 1 1/2 years more, so far.

The ceramic NCB bearing is supposed to work well, and last longer in higher temps than most other bearings. It is also quieter than the Yate Loon, but I don't think it blows any more -- or less air.

For that, I think you have to try the Slipstreams.

KenAF · Post by **KenAF** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:01 am

I haven't used this fan, but did a search and found this on the Scythe forums.

Surikan wrote:500RPM -- 0.12mmAq
800RPM -- 0.34mmAq
1200RPM -- 0.92mmAq
1600RPM -- 1.46mmAq
1900RPM -- 2.30mmAq

java_ed · Post by **java_ed** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:58 pm

That pic is going to get me out shopping for slipstream

KenAF · Post by **KenAF** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:10 pm

java_ed wrote:That pic is going to get me out shopping for slipstream

Be aware that pic says nothing about noise. The Slipstream @ 1200rpm generates more noise than the S-FLEX @ 1200rpm.

scdr · Post by **scdr** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:05 pm

Assuming they used the same test procedures for marketing their different fans.
SFF = S-Flex
SY12 = Slipstream

Code: Select all

SY1225SL12SL     500 rpm         7.5 dBA    25CFM    0.07A  0.8w
SFF21D           800 rpm         8.7 dBA    34CFM    0.10A  1.2w
SY1225SL12L      800 rpm        10.7 dBA    40CFM    0.10A  1.2w
SFF21E 	     1,200 rpm        20.1 dBA    49CFM    0.15A  1.8w

SFF21F 	     1,600 rpm        28 dBA      64CFM    0.20A  2.4w
SY1225SL12M    1,200 rpm        24 dBA      68CFM    0.26A  3.1w

SY1225SL12H    1,600 rpm        33 dBA      88CFM    0.41A  4.9w
SY1225SL12SH   1,900 rpm        37 dBA     110CFM    0.53A  6.4w

S-Flex MTBF 150,000 hrs
Slipstream MTBF 30,000 hrs

aztec · Post by **aztec** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:42 am

KenAF wrote:
java_ed wrote:That pic is going to get me out shopping for slipstream
Be aware that pic says nothing about noise. The Slipstream @ 1200rpm generates more noise than the S-FLEX @ 1200rpm.

I was hoping that wouldn't be the case. But from reading from various boards. The 1200 Slipstream does generate more noice than the S-Flex...although from what I've gathered, a lot of it is being attributed to the increased airflow and not the motor noise of the fan itself.

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:56 am

Hello,

I'd guess that the Slipstream 800RPM would be a lot quieter than the 1200RPM S-Flex, and it would move enough air, too. Or, you certainly could turn the 1200RPM down (quite a bit) and then it would be quieter as well, and it definitely would be able to move enough air.

mkygod · Post by **mkygod** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:09 am

NeilBlanchard wrote:Hello,

Ball bearings are no guarantee of long life. Good bearings last longer than poor bearings.

I have an old Fortron Source 300watt PSU with a medium speed Yate Loon (this was the very first exposure to Yate Loon that we had!), that lasted for at least 3 1/2 years, run 24/7. It got a low growling noise that let me know that it was worn. I replaced it with a GlobalWin NCB (which has a ceramic sleeve bearing!) and it has run for a 1 1/2 years more, so far.

The ceramic NCB bearing is supposed to work well, and last longer in higher temps than most other bearings. It is also quieter than the Yate Loon, but I don't think it blows any more -- or less air.

For that, I think you have to try the Slipstreams.

I didn't say anything about long life, only that sleeve bearing fans tend to get noisier faster than ball bearing fans. I want a fan that will last me a few years quietly, not just 1 year quietly.

So far my Nexus 12cm fan has been doing this admirably, but i just upgraded to a newer, hotter running, passive video card and now i need a comparably quiet fan that has a few more CFMs.

dhanson865 · Post by **dhanson865** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:01 pm

mkygod wrote:
NeilBlanchard wrote:Hello,

Ball bearings are no guarantee of long life. Good bearings last longer than poor bearings.

I have an old Fortron Source 300watt PSU with a medium speed Yate Loon (this was the very first exposure to Yate Loon that we had!), that lasted for at least 3 1/2 years, run 24/7. It got a low growling noise that let me know that it was worn. I replaced it with a GlobalWin NCB (which has a ceramic sleeve bearing!) and it has run for a 1 1/2 years more, so far.

The ceramic NCB bearing is supposed to work well, and last longer in higher temps than most other bearings. It is also quieter than the Yate Loon, but I don't think it blows any more -- or less air.

For that, I think you have to try the Slipstreams.
I didn't say anything about long life, only that sleeve bearing fans tend to get noisier faster than ball bearing fans. I want a fan that will last me a few years quietly, not just 1 year quietly.

Running 1 year quietly depends on the voltage you run them at and hours per year you run them. If you take a sleeve bearing fan and run it at 5v it will last a lot longer than the same fan at 12v.

I've got fans in use that I know I bought 5 years ago but I don't run them at 12v ever, they have been undervolted their entire usage period.

Felger Carbon · Post by **Felger Carbon** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:19 pm

mkygod wrote:I didn't say anything about long life, only that sleeve bearing fans tend to get noisier faster than ball bearing fans. I want a fan that will last me a few years quietly, not just 1 year quietly.

It's your money and your computer. If your mind is made up, you don't have to listen to advice that goes against your gut feeling. Go get that ball-bearing fan!

mkygod · Post by **mkygod** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:18 pm

Yeah, but ive already decided on a ball bearing fan. My original question was : "Is there anything comparable to the Slipstream in terms of CFM/RPM efficiency that uses ball bearings? Maybe the Scythe Minebea?"

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:40 am

Hello,

I would consider the GlobalWin NCB fan -- it is a ceramic sleeve bearing that has a very long expected lifespan. And they are quiet. The only ball bearing fan that I can think of that is reasonably quiet is the Adda that is used in many PSU's.

I've said this many times before, and I'll say it again: a bearing's useful life has everything to do with it's design and how well it is made, and nothing to do with the type of bearing. Poor ball bearings wear out quickly, as do poor sleeve bearings. Good quality bearings of both types can last a good long time!

Also, I'm thinking that good sleeve bearing will be inherently quieter than good ball bearings -- they have fewer moving parts.

mkygod · Post by **mkygod** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:34 pm

Thanks for the suggestion. I read up a bit on the Globalwin NCB and from what i can gather, the Globalwin is a bit quieter than the YateLoon (which my Nexus is based on), but also blows a bit less air. What I'm looking for is similar quietness, but with more CFM because I am now running a hotter system (since my videocard upgrade).

The main thing is that sleeve bearings get louder faster compared to a same quality ball bearing fan, thats just a common knowledge. That doesn't mean they have shorter lifespan, but i've had had a couple sleeve bearing fans that were super quiet and then annoying loud within a years time. The fans still work fine in all other respects, but the quietness just doesn't last. At least not from what i've seen. I don't think the lifespan ratings on these sleeve bearing fans account for the time they start to get noisy, only the time that they start to fail.

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:55 am

Hello,

I have a bunch of sleeve bearing fans, and only one (a medium speed Yate Loon in a Fortron Source PSU) ever got noisier -- and that was after almost 5 years of 24/7 operation.

If you want more air flow with lower noise, then you need a Scythe Slipstream. Otherwise, get the Adda.

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:31 am

In theory a good BB fan should outlast the same fan with sleeve bearings. It's the same with noise....a good sleeve bearing fan should have less motor noise than a good BB fan.

But it's usually the airflow that makes the most noise with most good fans. So if you're mostly concerned with a long life.....go for a fan with bearings. Hard to beat an S-Flex in this situation.

dhanson865 · Post by **dhanson865** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:09 am

mkygod wrote:Thanks for the suggestion. I read up a bit on the Globalwin NCB and from what i can gather, the Globalwin is a bit quieter than the YateLoon (which my Nexus is based on), but also blows a bit less air. What I'm looking for is similar quietness, but with more CFM because I am now running a hotter system (since my videocard upgrade).

The main thing is that sleeve bearings get louder faster compared to a same quality ball bearing fan, thats just a common knowledge. That doesn't mean they have shorter lifespan, but i've had had a couple sleeve bearing fans that were super quiet and then annoying loud within a years time. The fans still work fine in all other respects, but the quietness just doesn't last. At least not from what i've seen. I don't think the lifespan ratings on these sleeve bearing fans account for the time they start to get noisy, only the time that they start to fail.

three things that greatly affect the life of a sleeve bearing:

1 Heat / high temperature
2 Orientation in relation to gravity (there is an up and down side to sleeve bearing fans)
3 High RPMs

If you get a good sleeve bearing fan and put it in a case with hot components and horizontally mount it the wrong way and it is running at 12v or thereabouts you are asking for early failure.

If the fan is mounted vertically, and the air inside the case is cool, you then have leeway to run the same fan at lower RPMs and it will last a much longer time without changing noise character.

Part of keeping a system quiet is keeping it cool. If that means you have to use more fans or turn down the temp on your central heat/air then you have to do so or put up with more noise.

So maybe we should stop talking about bearings and start talking about your overall system:

What is acceptable temps to you and how are you measuring those temps?

What orientation are the fans in?

What Case and other components are these fans attached to and how restricted is the intake and outflow of each fan and the case as a whole?

What PSU are you using? (yes it is another fan in the overall equation and it also has intake and output for airflow)

How dusty is your environment?

What kind of temperature range does the room have (how cold and how hot, what are the extremes you see in a two year period)?

mkygod · Post by **mkygod** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:23 pm

Just to reiterate, this is the kind of performance I want.

1) Similar quietness of a Nexus 120mm @ 12v (this noise level is acceptable to me)
2) Better CFM performance

It's going to be my rear exhaust fan on my Antec P150 case w/ the stock 430he psu. I have a single 1000rpm 92mm Fan in front. The front air filters were removed, but the standard Antec honeycomb grilles are still in place. I don't plan on cutting out the grills. All my fans are vertically positioned. I notice that system and case temperatures actually go up when I run the computer with the case opened so I'm guessing it has good airflow when its closed.

Components
- Intel E8400 w/ Ultima 90 (with low spinning 12cm Nexus).
- 8800gt with Accelero S1 (passive).
- Abit IP35 pro motherboard.
- 25gb hitachi HDD, 750gb WD HDD

I don't have any actual readings on my system, because my IP35 has some problems reading temperates with my E8400 (an incompatibility between the chipset and this new CPU). I dont really trust the SYS and PWM readings either. The only reading I can tell you is my video card which has GPU temperature of 45C on idle. I live in California, so its very warm in the summer (90 degrees) and mildly cold in winters (high 30's). Dust levels are pretty average for a bedroom(carpeted). Computer is elevated 8 inches off the ground.

You said that If you run a sleeve bearing fan at 12v, then it will have a shorter lifespan.

Does that mean its better to get a 1600rpm Slipstream and undervolt it to 1200rpm, than getting a 1200rpm Slipstream @ 12v? I always thought it was the RPM that matters, not the voltage.

dhanson865 · Post by **dhanson865** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:43 pm

mkygod wrote:Just to reiterate, this is the kind of performance I want.

1) Similar quietness of a Nexus 120mm @ 12v (this noise level is acceptable to me)
2) Better CFM performance

To start with fans are fans for the most part you can't get something for nothing. If fan1 gets x dBA / y CFM then fan2 will get x dBA / y CFM within a couple of percent scaled up or down as per the RPMs would suggest. There is no free lunch on this; moving air causes noise. See http://www.silentpcreview.com/article690-page3.html for some fan math.

Given that you can pay a little more for a Scythe Slipstream or one of the other few top performers and maybe eek out an extra 5% CFM at the same dBA.

You can also assume that if you are dealing with 23 dBA on a 120mm Nexus at 12v that you won't notice much difference if your replacement fan does 24dBA instead of 23.

Further you have a 1000 RPM 92mm fan in front which given the distance from the back of the case to the front may be perceived as though it is louder to a user in front of the PC than the 120mm fan in the rear (depending on placement of the PC vs walls and users, everything is relative)

Further you have two hard drives as noise sources (I'm assuming that the Hitachi is 250GB not 25GB).

All in all you have a system that can be quiet but never silent.

mkygod wrote: I live in California, so its very warm in the summer (90 degrees) and mildly cold in winters (high 30's). Computer is elevated 8 inches off the ground.

Does that carpeted room stay exposed to the elements part of the time or all of the time? If you are in a concrete bunker 20 feet under ground it doesn't matter if it is 200 degrees out side so long as your air conditioning works.

mkygod wrote:You said that If you run a sleeve bearing fan at 12v, then it will have a shorter lifespan.

Does that mean its better to get a 1600rpm Slipstream and undervolt it to 1200rpm, than getting a 1200rpm Slipstream @ 12v? I always thought it was the RPM that matters, not the voltage.

The RPM matters but the voltage is how you control the RPM.

OK going back to your goals, you want near 23 dBA and as much airflow as you can get without standing out from the noise floor of your other components. If you get the 1600 RPM slipstream and find that you don't notice it at 1420 rpm or if you get the 1600 RPM and find you don't notice it below 900 rpm you are ok, both of those are within that fans controllable range. But If you get the 1200 RPM slipstream and at 12v you don't hear it you have no room to turn the fan up. You aren't going to get 1400 rpm out of a 1200 rpm fan.

Now as to it lasting longer. If your final resting spot is 900 rpm you might not notice much difference between the life of a 1200 rpm or 1600 rpm model. But if your final resting spot is 1100 rpm you will probably be in better shape on the longevity of the 1600 rpm model but it isn't guaranteed every fan you buy will have differences in manufacturing that make it luck of the draw.

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article690-page1.html is a must read if you want to know why fans get noisy after you buy them or why a fan might be noisier right out of the box than you expected.

Now assuming you are NOT going to run 12v (which most SPCR regulars avoid) how will you supply the lower voltage? Will you supply fixed 7v, fixed 5v, will you use a fanmate, motherboard header plus bios settings, motherboard header plus speedfan?

The fun thing is until SPCR tests the slipstream fans I don't have any apples to apples dBA to dBA numbers to give you. I don't know what rpm it takes on a slipstream to match a Nexus and I know even less how that comparison will go with your exact Nexus and the exact slipstream you might buy.

If you are rich buy a variety of fans two or three different speeds of each style mentioned in this thread and test them for yourself to see which you like the best in real world use.

If you aren't rich stick with the Nexus you have or buy a fan that matches the rated airflow of the nexus + 20%.

120mm Nexus = 1000 RPM claimed and ~37CFM claimed
SPCR Nexus = 1080 RPM and 47CFM

Measurement methods vary greatly in the numbers they generate from the same fan.

A Sflex 1200 RPM at 12v would give you a slight increase over the Nexus both in noise and airflow.

A Scythe Slipstream 1200 RPM at 12v would give you a noticeable increase in airflow and slightly more noise as well.

If you used a fan controller to get the CFM equal between the 3 fans you would have 3 different RPMs and 3 different noise levels. Though you might have a harder time telling the difference between the noise using your ears than you do having software tell you the RPMs.

Life is complicated...

Schrademan · Post by **Schrademan** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:53 pm

Would one 800 Slipstream front intake and one 800 Slipstream rear exhaust provide enough airflow for a 8800GT passively cooled by an Accelero S1?

I'm planning on getting such a setup as well, and want to make sure I have good yet quiet airflow. I'll be using a Xion II case.

Thanks.

dhanson865 · Post by **dhanson865** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:03 am

You'd have better luck getting an answer by searching the forums for a thread about the S1 or starting a new one.

I've never used it on any graphics card so I don't know the answer.