Upgrade Noctua NF-P12 to Gentle Typhoon 1850 for radiator?

[dkazaz]

Hi

I have a Corsair H50 CPU cooler (simple watercooling for people who don't want a full water setup). I have the 120mm radiator set up with two Noctua NF-P12's in Push-Pull exhaust configuration.

My temps are not bad (Q9300, oc'd@3GHz, stock voltage) idles at 22C (Cores are 40-50C) and under Prime95 it goes to 44C (cores 60-67C).

I'm hoping to improve cooling a bit under load without compromising too much on noise. My ideal scenario is finding fans that will perform silently when temps are low, but have the headroom to increase cooling when temps rise, without insane noise.

I've read great things about Scythe Gentle Typhoons, but since my Noctua's are said to be excellent too, I wonder if the benefit of upgrading them is worth it.

Alternatively I wonder if there's another fan out there that's really silent at low rpm (~700-1000) but can go up to more airflow than the noctuas when the CPU is loaded.

Any advise would be really appreciated!

[ces]

AKASA Apache

That AKASA Apache (PWM) appears to be built by the same plant that builds the Noctua fans only it appears to have fan blades designed to handle more back pressure.

The Gentle Typhoon

1. Check this info on the Gentle Typhoons. Compare the 1850 running at 5 volts with the other versions of the fan at 5 volts:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/misc/picture/?s ... ig.png&1=1

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cooler ... up_18.html

2. the Gentle Typhoon RPMs don't compare directly with rpms from other fans. 1600 rpm on the Gentle Typhoon might be equivalent to 1200 or 1300 rpm on the other Scythes. (1200 rpm on the slipstream will produce about the same CFM as 1200 rpm on the S-Flex, but at 1200 rpm the GT will be producing much less CFM)

3. They don't move a lot of air, but I would expect that impedance that will bring lesser fans to their knees (generating noise in the process) probably will leave them unaffected. What might cut the CFM's of a lesser fan by 2/3 and cause them to huff and chuff, might drop the GTs only 20 or 25% with only a modest rise in noise.

Even in free air, the GT is exceedingly quiet. I own one though I have not gotten around to testing or using it. So this is all from reading reviews combined with assumptions from observation of its design and who manufactures it (Nidec).

4. Why don't you buy one, test it, and let us know what you find?

CoolerMaster Blademaster

I know nothing about this fan. But its blades are shaped like the Akasa Apache.

It has a wide performance range (it's PWM): 600 - 2000 R.P.M
It's printed specs indicate it can handle high pressure: 0.40 – 3.90 mmH2O
It uses up watts. It must be doing something with all that energy: 4.32 W Max.
And it isn't using it to push all that great a volume of air: 21.2 - 76.8 CFM
Maybe it is using it to generate and maintain pressure.

So it looks like a good candidate. You'll have to try it though to know for sure.

http://www.coolermaster-usa.com/product ... ct_id=2945

[ces]

I have seen benchmarks somewhere on the Noctuas vs the s flex. \the Noctuas appeared to be better at handling high impedance.

I suspect that the Akasa are better at this than the Noctua. And the GT fans are best of all.

But there are no benchmarks out there to confirm this.

[dkazaz]

Thanks for all the suggestions! Unfortunately I only have one PWM header on the mobe and need two fans for the radiator...

I really want to give the GT's a chance, but they're not available in my country and the cost of shipping makes them a rather expensive bet. That's why I'm trying to collect more opinions before I take the plunge

If I bought them and found they were about the same as the Noctua NF-p12, I'd be pretty disappointed

The review referenced above suggests the best fans (along with GT's) for set ups with resistance (rads, cpu coolers etc) are Noiseblocker but I can't find the more powerful 1800 rpm model here either - only the 1400rpm model which looks about the same as the GT's.

Anybody have an idea of how they compare to the noctuas and the GT's?

[ces]

I don't think the Noctuas and the GTs compare well. It's sort of comparing apples to oranges.

All things equal, PWM fans will at least make noise only when your system is under stress.

Akasa has a special pwm splitter that permits you to run 2 fans off the same header. It even taps into a PSU line to make sure you don't put to great of electrical load on the header.

Akasa is generally available in Europe. Unfortunately Akasa is hard to get over here in the US.

Akasa Apaches are probably a strong upgrade to Noctua in terms of handling pressure and you don't have to undervolt them. PWM will automatically slow them down when not needed and speed them up when needed, depending on how much control you can set up through your motherboard (a) bios, (b) motherboard software, and/or (c) Speedfan talking to your motherboard.

[b_rubenstein]

Under load your temp is 50ºC below Tj Max! There is nothing to fix, or make better; you must be bored.

[b_rubenstein]

deleted

[ces]

I have a 140mm noiseblocker. It's a nice fan.

It seems more like another version of the Noctua with similar performance characteristics. The faster Noiseblocker would likely be like a faster Noctua. More airflow accompanied with more noise.

I think the Apache and and the GT are just different types of fans. Designed to deliver less cfm in free air and more CFM under pressure. The GT is quiet. and Akasa has a reputation for building quiet fans so the Apache is probably quiet as well. Though someone on this board complained that he bought 2 and the bearings went out after a few months. Most likely a bad batch - Akasa us a good brand generally.

But the only way to tell is to test them out and measure the temps.

The GTs are the only enthusiast fan that I am aware of that uses real ball bearings. S Flex, Noctua, Noiseblocker - they all use fancy sleeve bearings. Because of the smaller points of contact, real bearing fans don't handle high g forces as well as sleeve bearings. That means they don't travel well. If you can't get them locally, maybe it is best just to leave them alone.

Though the GT are neat fans. If you get one you will probably find a use for it. It won't be wasted. The next time you need a horizontal mounted fan, you can use them. You can run the 1850rpm model at 5v and get a very quiet fan running I think at something like 600rpm.

[ces]

Under load your temp is 50ºC below Tj Max! There is nothing to fix, or make better; you must be bored.

What is the difference between CPU 44C and the core temps of 60-67C. Where exactly are these temps being measured. And I often wonder about just how accurate the measurements are.

Speedfan gives me a warning when the cores go above 50C. So for me that is my limit. Though frankly I don't know why.

Where do you get your 50C comfort level for the CPU temp?

[ces]

The review referenced above suggests the best fans (along with GT's) for set ups with resistance (rads, cpu coolers etc) are Noiseblocker but I can't find the more powerful 1800 rpm model here either - only the 1400rpm model which looks about the same as the GT's.

Examine the free air CFMs and related RPMS and you will see they have far different performance parameters. Obviously designed to different objectives.

[dkazaz]

Under load your temp is 50ºC below Tj Max! There is nothing to fix, or make better; you must be bored.

Probably true Thing is I'm still not happy with the noise levels, but when I use super silent components I get stressed wondering if they will cope with the sweltering 40C heat we get in summer.

Under load your temp is 50ºC below Tj Max! There is nothing to fix, or make better; you must be bored.

What is the difference between CPU 44C and the core temps of 60-67C. Where exactly are these temps being measured. And I often wonder about just how accurate the measurements are.

Speedfan gives me a warning when the cores go above 50C. So for me that is my limit. Though frankly I don't know why.

Where do you get your 50C comfort level for the CPU temp?

44C comes from the motherboard sensor, core temps from the CPU itself.

There's nice program called RealTemp (free) which lists your core temps and also lists for every core the gap between current temperature and the temperature at which the CPU will start throttling to avoid burning out.

So for setting alarms, that's the best you get. I read that Intel's throttling limits are conservative maybe up to 10C lower but that's a safe choice.

Speedfan shows you the core temps in the "Exotics" tab, but not the difference to the throttling limits of your CPU.

I use both

At the moment I'm leaning toward ordering 2 GT's (the cost incl. shipping is equivalent to every other choice) if only to test them - I'll ask the store to package them well. I'm really interested in what you said here though:

I don't think the Noctuas and the GTs compare well. It's sort of comparing apples to oranges.

Could you please elaborate on this? What's the key difference?

Thanks for all your advice and info!

[danimal]

Hi

I have a Corsair H50 CPU cooler (simple watercooling for people who don't want a full water setup). I have the 120mm radiator set up with two Noctua NF-P12's in Push-Pull exhaust configuration.

My temps are not bad (Q9300, oc'd@3GHz, stock voltage) idles at 22C (Cores are 40-50C) and under Prime95 it goes to 44C (cores 60-67C).

I'm hoping to improve cooling a bit under load without compromising too much on noise. My ideal scenario is finding fans that will perform silently when temps are low, but have the headroom to increase cooling when temps rise, without insane noise.

what speed are you running your fans at?

the nf-p12's are high-pressure fans, they have a six-year warranty, they were an xlnt choice for your radiator, about the only improvement that you could expect to get would be some kind of automatic fan speed control.

are you handy with electronics? build it yourself, 4-pin pwm on motherboard to 3-pin converter for the fan connector, run as many fans as you want:
http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?p=1916691

i imagine that you could buy one somewhere as well?

[b_rubenstein]

Thing is I'm still not happy with the noise levels, but when I use super silent components I get stressed wondering if they will cope with the sweltering 40C heat we get in summer.

That's the crux of the problem. Most people don't take the ambient temperature into account.

Does it really get up to 40º C in the room where the computer is?

What you can try now is measuring the room temperature, with a reasonably accurate thermometer and see how many degrees above ambient the CPU core gets running Prime 95. Whatever that temp rise is, you add it to 40º for a rough order of magnitude estimate of what it will be during the summer. Tj max of that CPU is either 95º or 100ºC. If your cooling system can keep the CPU core temp around 15º below that there shouldn't be any problems. (Ignore Tcase temperatures, because they can be very inaccurate.)

[dkazaz]

Good call, wish I'd thought of that - common sense really!

It really does get up to 35-40C in summer. In the afternoon it can be 45C in the city because of all the heat reflecting off the concrete!

Of course temperature in the house is probably around 5C cooler and in summer I often run the AC too. On the other hand I try to run the AC as little as possible for reasons of cost and environmental consciousness. So I want the PC to be able to cope with this extreme scenario, and of course I can live with some noise then, but the rest of the time I want it quiet.

I've ordered an NZXT sentry fan controller so I hope this can do the trick, if not, I'll next move to PWM fans.

I'll do the temperature measurements this weekend.

From the advice I'm getting I feel that the GT's@1850rpm will not be a huge upgrade to the Noctuas @1300rpm, so I'll hold off on that for now and experiment with some other high pressure fans I have handy.

If it makes a difference in core temps I will decide splash out, but my recent experiences with Prime95, suggest it might not be possible to go much lower than current temps with any conventional setup...

[ces]

What you can try now is measuring the room temperature, with a reasonably accurate thermometer and see how many degrees above ambient the CPU core gets running Prime 95. Whatever that temp rise is, you add it to 40º for a rough order of magnitude estimate of what it will be during the summer. Tj max of that CPU is either 95º or 100ºC. If your cooling system can keep the CPU core temp around 15º below that there shouldn't be any problems. (Ignore Tcase temperatures, because they can be very inaccurate.)

I would measure the temp where the cooler is getting its ambient air - most likely from inside the case. The internal case temps may be 15C higher than the room temp.

[ces]

akase lets you run I think 3 fans off of its PWM splitter. Maybe you just need to get 3 pwm fans. They will only kick in when you have a high load - which is probably not often.

Also Enermax has some strong and reasonably quiet fans that have their own temp sensors that tell them when to kick it up a notch. They have a very interesting magnetic bearing. And if you put just a drop on sewing machine oil in them, they are supposed to get even better.

[b_rubenstein]

[quote="ces"
I would measure the temp where the cooler is getting its ambient air - most likely from inside the case. The internal case temps may be 15C higher than the room temp.[/quote]

Just measure the ambient air temperature. What you are addressing is part of the overall temperature rise. It's also bad, because the interior case temperature will vary greatly depending on where it's measured. In the case is being cooled with a single fan, in a positive pressure configuration, then it would be reasonable to measure the intake air temp, taken before it enters the case.

[ces]

Just measure the ambient air temperature. What you are addressing is part of the overall temperature rise. It's also bad, because the interior case temperature will vary greatly depending on where it's measured. In the case is being cooled with a single fan, in a positive pressure configuration, then it would be reasonable to measure the intake air temp, taken before it enters the case.

Why not measure it at the face of the CPU fan?

[b_rubenstein]

Why not measure it at the face of the CPU fan?

Because it would be measuring the wrong thing.

What needs to be known is the ambient temperature of the room to calculate the difference between the ambient temp and the CPU core temp. Nothing else.

The concept is simple, don't complicate it with extraneous things.

[ces]

Because it would be measuring the wrong thing.

What needs to be known is the ambient temperature of the room to calculate the difference between the ambient temp and the CPU core temp. Nothing else.

The air cooling the heat sink is the air entering the CPU heat sink. It is the temperature of the air making contact with the heat sink that counts, at least if you are talking about CPU heat sink. Most of that contact takes place internal to the heat sink as the air enters the heat sink and make contact with the surface of the fins.

For example, if you duct in cold air from the outside of the case directly to the heat sink, the heatsink will cool based on the temp of that air.

MikeC once made a comment that, from his experience, the inside of the case is generally about 15C hotter than the outside air. He was talking about power supplies at the time, but its the same principle.

[b_rubenstein]

Forget it, you don't understand what is trying to be done here.