are you really feeling that defensive?jaganath wrote:hec baro rumini sui proprius stercus.Irumator.Quanda podeces te regi eorum fecerunt?
tsk tsk
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sorry for being childish.MoJo wrote:That's what I was getting at, 20C at idle is a bit much for most configurations because it's getting too close to ambient temperatures. Under load is a different matter. I didn't mention that in my original post, my mistake. For some reason I just assumed it was idle temps, and you know what they say about assumption.
My own WC system probably manages more than 20C under load, but I never ran the system on air so I can't make an accurate comparison.
~El~Jefe~, don't be so childish.
I think the problem is the insistence on using the case internals as fans for a radiator. I never did that, always had the radiator core outside the machine. make a long enough radiator, you dont need a fan for a lower powered machine. I always like one fan and so I put a slow moving one in front of them. except now that I have the reserator system which is obviously fanless and holds fine on x1900 xt and 4400 939 dual core loop.MoJo wrote:I don't think having a single rad with single 120mm fan is necessarily a problem. My current system cools a 4400+ X2 and 7800GT with a DD heatercore and single 120mm Yate Loon at 5V. Away from very high end overclocked systems, I'm not sure you need massive rads.
A 120.3 should be able to cool even a quad core / 8800 Ultra system easily.
The biggest problem I have with rads is that there is not really a good way to mount them in cases. At least not any descent rads. That's why I'm so interested in the Antec Twelve Hundred. Assuming the rad is up to dissipating 300W of heat (QX6700 130W, 8800 Ultra 150W, plus maybe NB) and it is reasonably priced...
I think it needs someone like Antec to bring water cooling into the mainstream. Imagine if you could buy a case which already had the radiator, pump and fillport/res fitted. Imagine if they were good quality components too, not the usual kit rubbish. You could then just pick waterblocks for your components and fit it all up almost as easily as air heatsinks.
That's because it is.snutten wrote:I counted 5 posts claiming one 1x12 radiator is enough to make it all fantastically quiet.
My pump is silent in my case. Eheim 1048 mounted on foam. Tubes are also foam mounted where they touch the case because I found they were vibrating too.I noticed several people claiming their system is quieter than any air alternative even though they obviously enough keep their pump turned on.
I suppose it depends on your system. I find Yate Loons at 5V inaudible in my two systems (customised server case and P182). The HDDs and the plumbing in my house make more noise.I keep reading about fans, on whichever rad, running over 4V and still the owner claim the system is silent or at least quieter than air.
Mine are. I used to have Grow Up Japan Smart Drive 2002 enclosures and they still were.I read a lot about GPUs but not so much about HDDs which seems to imply the W/C crowd's computers are not quiet enough for the drives to emerge as the worst noise polluters yet.
I didn't find it very difficult. Mine isn't even the quietest or lowest vibration pump.I kept reading "but that can be done by..." but few are actually doing it because it's too damn hard. Believe me when I say pulling off feats like completely dampening a pump isn't coming easy.
It all depends what your goal is. If you want a very high end system producing lots of heat, WC is worth considering for silence. You could just use air with variable speed fans perhaps, although that doesn't help if you do overnight renders or run distributed computing projects.I didn't get any reaction to my main concern: the continuing issues of advice to beginners to go W/C for silence. It's folly.
Have you posted any pics or specs for your PC to compare them against?snutten wrote:I couldn't see any actual, running, existing W/C setup presented here that's quieter than my air rig. Nor cheaper, smaller, reliable-er or practical-aler.
If you can hear the Raptor maybe it's time for a solid state drive.snutten wrote:Watercooling is quieter huh? I just built an AMD X2 computer with a Ninja, an ASUS EN7600GT Silent graphics, a Silverstone passive PSU, a Raptor in a mCubed Vertical Silence box and two 250 GB Samsung 5400 rpm HDDs as storage (hanging from silicone strings) in a sound isolated case. It spins a total of two Nexus 120, one Nexus 92 and one Papst 4412FGL, all under 4 volts with dust filters hence running four fans hooked up on a T-balancer (still trimming in). Rest assured it's absolutely super quiet, cross my heart and hope to die.
Just starting a water pump makes more noise unless it's in a dead box. Anything but passive rads are sure to lose out because of the fins that actually can make as much noise as the fan itself on low rpms.
Save something drastic happens I won't touch W/C again, that's for sure. If you have to have the latest bombastic GPU then maybe there are miniscule reasons for using a pump to move that heat a couple of centimeters, but really, come on... if a computer can't be heard while air-cooled then why the **** bother with something hard to install, hard to move, expensive, maintenance demanding and risky instead?
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!zoob wrote: My system configuration:
QX9650 @ 4GHz
X38 Motherboard
Radeon 3870
4 x 1 TB HDD
Corsair HX620
PA120.2 radiator, listing the water blocks won't make a difference. CPU/NB/GPU all water cooled. 2xYL @ 5V
Maybe we have different standards. My radiator fans used to be 4412's @ ~3.5V and guess what? My air rig is way quieter.MoJo wrote: 1x120mm heatercore radiator with Yate Loon @ 5V (inaudible)
My 1048 was the loudest part of my system (until I got that horrible DDC) and I quickly gave up on the idea of having it placed on foam. I hanged it free in the air using soft silicon cords, so no vibration problems at all. But it still made noise even from within my case which is meticulously isolated with really thick and heavy sound dampening materials.MoJo wrote:My pump is silent in my case. Eheim 1048 mounted on foam.
This is my point. If the W/C setup isn't quieter than the air alternative, then why bother?MoJo wrote:Of course, the system isn't quieter than a passive or single fan air cooled system, but it was also a pretty high end system at the time.
Because you haven't bothered to stuff you HDDs in boxes like e.g. Mcubed Vertical Silence, hang it in silicon and thoroughly isolate the case walls with something that really works? Otherwise, how can the HDD bother you more than that YL @ 5V with rad fins and all? Maybe you dislike the HDD seek noise more than anything else?MoJo wrote:I generally see no point running my fans below 5V because they are already silent. Actually, in the P182 with WD500AAKS HDDs I can go to about 8-9V before the fans become louder than the HDDs.I keep reading about fans, on whichever rad, running over 4V and still the owner claim the system is silent or at least quieter than air.
This surprises me a bit. Maybe we are talking about different things here. If you mean to tell me you can hear the drive seeks behind the fan, then of course you'd be right about that. But I really can't pick up any bothersome whining idle sound at all from my drives unless I put my ear rather close to the case. Seeks are almost impossible to get rid of though. What drives are you using?MoJo wrote:Mine are. I used to have Grow Up Japan Smart Drive 2002 enclosures and they still were.I read a lot about GPUs but not so much about HDDs which seems to imply the W/C crowd's computers are not quiet enough for the drives to emerge as the worst noise polluters yet.
Your engineering skills perhaps surpass mine.MoJo wrote:I didn't find it very difficult. Mine isn't even the quietest or lowest vibration pump.I kept reading "but that can be done by..." but few are actually doing it because it's too damn hard. Believe me when I say pulling off feats like completely dampening a pump isn't coming easy.
I concede, as long as a Zalman passive case or something in the line is out. But a T-balancer goes a long way.MoJo wrote:It all depends what your goal is. If you want a very high end system producing lots of heat, WC is worth considering for silence.I didn't get any reaction to my main concern: the continuing issues of advice to beginners to go W/C for silence. It's folly.
Why not go for a passive PSU?zoob wrote:My system configuration:
QX9650 @ 4GHz
X38 Motherboard
Radeon 3870
4 x 1 TB HDD
Corsair HX620
PA120.2 radiator, listing the water blocks won't make a difference. CPU/NB/GPU all water cooled. 2xYL @ 5V
The PSU fan is the loudest part of the system.
My hearing is fine thanks. Inaudible means I cannot hear it. I sit 1m away from the PC with it under my desk. I live near a main road, but at night there is no traffic and it is very quiet.snutten wrote:Maybe we have different standards. My radiator fans used to be 4412's @ ~3.5V and guess what? My air rig is way quieter.
It was probably not working right. The 1048 is quite sensitive to having the impeller properly balanced and free to spin. If it gets dirt in it or is for some reason slightly off centre, it can make more noise.My 1048 was the loudest part of my system (until I got that horrible DDC) and I quickly gave up on the idea of having it placed on foam. I hanged it free in the air using soft silicon cords, so no vibration problems at all. But it still made noise even from within my case which is meticulously isolated with really thick and heavy sound dampening materials.
Um... because it is quieter???This is my point. If the W/C setup isn't quieter than the air alternative, then why bother?
Actually, I did. Grow Up Japan Smart Drive 2002c, generally thought of as being the best silent HDD boxes available, suspended with elastic cord.Because you haven't bothered to stuff you HDDs in boxes like e.g. Mcubed Vertical Silence, hang it in silicon and thoroughly isolate the case walls with something that really works?
The WD5000AAKS has a sound like a low RPM fan when spinning. They are not in Silent Drive enclosures at the moment, just suspended. Actually, I used Samsung Spinpoints with Nidec motors and WD5000KS before, which were even quieter (silent when suspended with the case closed at 1m). I still could not hear the pump.Otherwise, how can the HDD bother you more than that YL @ 5V with rad fins and all? Maybe you dislike the HDD seek noise more than anything else?
Sorry, never meant to imply anything is wrong with your hearing. But you wouldn't hear my computer either. Or; you'd hear my computer more less-erer.MoJo wrote:My hearing is fine thanks. Inaudible means I cannot hear it.
I had two different 1048 and both were the same. But I never knew about that tape mod. Should be great because undoubtedly my 1048's made slightly more noise when back pressure increased. I split my line to decrease head.MoJo wrote:It was probably not working right. The 1048 is quite sensitive to having the impeller properly balanced and free to spin. If it gets dirt in it or is for some reason slightly off centre, it can make more noise.
You can also mod it with PTFE tape to prevent that happening. The PTFE mod means that it could potentially jam if dirt ever got in it, but in a PC that isn't an issue (it was designed for pond use with small stones etc).
I have on several occasions admitted that for the most extreme video cards sometimes there's no passive alternative, leaving only W/C as a quiet option.MoJo wrote:Um... because it is quieter???This is my point. If the W/C setup isn't quieter than the air alternative, then why bother?
Please read what I write before replying. You will note that I was pointing out that water cooling is not quieter in mid or low end systems, only high end systems where you need massive amounts of cooling.
What did you use to sound isolate your case? This is the most important step. Did it not work well?MoJo wrote:Actually, I did. Grow Up Japan Smart Drive 2002c, generally thought of as being the best silent HDD boxes available, suspended with elastic cord.Because you haven't bothered to stuff you HDDs in boxes like e.g. Mcubed Vertical Silence, hang it in silicon and thoroughly isolate the case walls with something that really works?
(My bold)MoJo wrote:The WD5000AAKS has a sound like a low RPM fan when spinning. They are not in Silent Drive enclosures at the moment, just suspended. Actually, I used Samsung Spinpoints with Nidec motors and WD5000KS before, which were even quieter (silent when suspended with the case closed at 1m). I still could not hear the pump.
I doubt that any passive PSU would be able to handle this setup when it is loaded. In fact, I ran an Antec Phantom 500W on a similarly specced system and it got hot enough for the fan on it to start up.snutten wrote:Why not go for a passive PSU?
I believe Saphire and Powercolor makes that GPU with passive heatsinks?
How is your 2xYL@5 + Pump (the rest is on same terms) not noisier than my suspended (in free air, no fins) Nexuses all running on less than 3.5V?
Are you tempted to write me off with "I can't hear it"? Because it's not relevant unless you can say "It's quieter than your air alternative", wouldn't you agree?
I believe I can pick up your white glove. As weapons I chose my Nexuses under 4V. Are your fans quieter? What PSU are you using? Is your case sound isolated or do you use a solid state? (If not, you are already beaten, water or not. The HDDs are the noisiest parts in any near silent system with spinning discs.)davidsadd wrote:I built an Audio Recording Workstation out of a P182 case and use the Zalman Reserator to cool the cpu and graphics card. That leave VERY little heat inside the case so the fans could be replaced and slowed down until they were inaudible. That's inaudible in an absolutely silent recording environment. The Zalman isn't typical of Water Cooling tools, but it's silence can't be replicated with fans so that at least answers your challenge.
17dBA is as quiet an environment as most of us could ever hope to live in. According to Wikipedia, 20dB is the lower limit of a very calm room. Unless you live in some kind of sound proofed bunker, then a Yate Loon or Nexus at 5V from 1m away should be inaudible. Certainly, inside a good case it would be.At 1m, the Slipstream 800, powered at 7V, registered no change in the 17 dBA ambient when it was turned off/on.
I am using Yate Loon DSL12's. I bought a large number and cherry picked a few that sound the smoothest. Used the louder ones in other people's systems who don't care as muchErssa wrote:P.S: I'd like to assume zoob meant low speed YLs, but I'm 90% sure these are medium speed YLs he was talking about. That means you can get more or less the same overclocks with air cooling.
Sorry to interrupt here, but what mod with PTFE tape are we talking about there?MoJo wrote: ...The 1048 is quite sensitive to having the impeller properly balanced and free to spin. If it gets dirt in it or is for some reason slightly off centre, it can make more noise.
You can also mod it with PTFE tape to prevent that happening. The PTFE mod means that it could potentially jam if dirt ever got in it, but in a PC that isn't an issue (it was designed for pond use with small stones etc). ...
It's not always so simple, as shown by Config #3 in the Mini P180 review.MoJo wrote:Take a look the post by MikeC in this thread:
MikeC wrote:A Scythe Slipstream 120mm fan rated at 800 RPM was used. Initially, it was run at full speed (12V), but it was judged to be too audible. A damping resistor was used to pull the speed of the Scythe fan down just a bit, to 680 RPM, where its noise contribution dropped to below that of the WD hard drive just above it.