http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13416272
Some people pray to "a God", others pray to "iGod", damned funny, needs to be watched
![Mr. Green :mrgreen:](./images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif)
Andy
Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee
People buy PC's in spite of Bill Gates, not because of him.ces wrote:What does that make Bill Gates?
When was the last time you saw people worshipping Bill Gates or Microsoft........ Never as far as I know, for Apple this is the norm in recent years.What does that make Bill Gates?
No thanks, I dont belive in any religionhttp://learn.gotomeeting.com/forms/NA-G ... 0000005cTk
Some examples that I see commonly.perceived attitudes?
Exactly whose attitudes are you referring to? The attitude of the Apple cult members, or the attitude of those who correctly point out that Apple is a religious cult. I would not categorize the latter as an "attitude' as much as an astute observation.NeilBlanchard wrote:I use an iMac and I like it a lot. But, it isn't perfect. Why is it necessary to belittle others because of perceived attitudes?
I thought I would leave that to someone else, but as yet no-one has stood up and given the answer.The best parts of a Mac are the OS and the integration/testing. You should put some value on that.
I dont follow your point, or was it not pointed towards me.? My quoted prices included Windows 7 64-bit, and it also can run some popular Apple products.If you only use free software, yes: Mac OS is worthless. But if you use commercial software, it has a value even if only because it can run some popular Adobe products. You'd have to pay for Windows to run them on a PC.
I was quoting for "Home Premium" not Pro, crippled or not its legal and actually very reliable and more "ressilient" than other MS OS's.A legal, uncrippled Windows 7 (Pro, not Ultimate) will set you back over 300$ here.
There is OEM that big manufacturers use, and again there is OEM that you can buy and use, I included the price of the latter ~ £70. You type in your included serial code (on the sticker) and even get a 10p DVD to install it with, as far as whether it is 32 or 64 bit depends on the version you buy, they are different products - which shouldnt be a real problem as most CPU's have been 64-bit for years, but specifically the OEM that you buy with the components to DIY a PC is only supposed to be installed on the PC components that you buy it with - thats the general rules and regs of the licence.Lots of people who aren't OEMs buy and/or use OEM licences in a way that doesn't comply with the license. Yeah, that's cheap but so are 20$ versions of Windows from Russia...
Not being able to choose between 32 and 64 bits is also an issue.
I dont know what RDP is, as I am sure most people dont, therefore it cant be popular and most people would never miss - out of interest does the Mac OS come with that.?I'm not knowledgable about Windows so I only know some of the ways in which HP is crippled. The most annoying for me is the lack of RDP server and the management stuff which means you've got to hack obscure registry keys to make the simplest of changes to the braindead defaults.
Also, because of the general lack of malware (and service packs, forced upon the tech-illiterate, which decimate older hardware), their five-year-old mac mini still works great. I admit I cannot speak to Windows 7, but I find the majority Windows installations (regardless of user literacy) tend to get bogged down as they age.1.) Several proof-of-concept viruses have been written for OS X in the past, so this isn't the "first." They never propagate.
2.) When you download this .tgz file in Safari, Safari warns you that it's an application, and you have to click to continue.
3.) When you run it, an admin password prompt is displayed by OS X, and you have to enter it to continue.
Like I said--FUD of the day.
I dont disagree with anyone who says that the Mac OS is intuitive and MS have often cocked things up, or simply changed them enough to screw with the minds of the users of older OS's.I will say that, for my ex's completely computer illiterate parents, a mac mini is wonderfully intuitive. And not the M$ where-did-we-put-your-file-menu-oh-now-its-a-non-linear-picture-bar-that-changes-layout-with-your-resolution-and-window-size "intuitive".
That point, although it is true does not in anyway state that Viruses and Malware do not exist, I always say the same thing about software of any form, would YOU write it for ~ 5% of the market or for 95%, if you want to piss off a lot of people you dont do it the Apple way, if the tables were turned in terms of market share the tables would also be turned in terms of the share of Viruses/Malware. Simply put, if YOU write software or viruses or Malware then its much "better" to hit the big markets than the small markets, go for MS rather than Apple or Linux. Remember that Linux has a small market share, take its virues/Malware into account as well when you consider MS/Apple and viruses.And while theoretical Mac OS viruses exist, in the wild they are effectively non-existent (obviously due to OS market share and not any work on Apple's part).
My parents PC has worked perfectly for a similar time with no problems, again it should be noted that it is very difficult to show who wins and by how much, there are simply to many variables - so I suggest that we all agree to ignore this point as no-one will ever "win" a point here, so lets not bother trying. FYI just for a laugh, I once saw a PC that was running "Windows (dog-shit) 98" that had been running for over 2-years non-stopFinally, because of the general lack of malware (and service packs which decimate older hardware forced upon the tech-illiterate), their five-year-old mac mini still works great. I admit I cannot speak to Windows 7, but I find the majority Windows installations (regardless of user literacy) tend to get bogged down as they age.
As per my last answer it is impossible to even say if that is normal (and true e.g. not a harmless exagaration).Finally, there is the good old my-machine-has-been-on-for-N-years argument. Again, I cannot speak to Windows 7, so maybe this is moot, but the mac mini mentioned above is only off when the electric grid goes down. They never have to restart for performance reasons, ever.
Yet I know someone who blew loads of cash on an Apple because "they are so intuitive and so much easier to use than a PC", he cant use his very expensive Mac either, and he only has his Mac recommender to show him, rather than "everyone". Where would you rather be.? screwed but can ask 95% of people for help, or screwed and only able to ask 5% of people for help - mass market share DOES have real benefits sometimes - like having a Nokia phone 10-years ago, someone WILL have a charger that you can use.I will never pay the Apple premium myself, but I do see the value in a machine "just working" for those who can't format a disk to save their lives
FUD is the answer there, no sane person claims that IE is competent, let alone perfect - personally I have considered its use as "a security risk" for a few years, FF + AdBlockPlus is much better if at least for the security questions its asks you, and the fact that it is much more difficult to "click" on a link in an otherwise harmless porn-site that will take you to a malicious one - seriously if you use FF and dont us ABP, do so.Quote:
1.) Several proof-of-concept viruses have been written for OS X in the past, so this isn't the "first." They never propagate.
2.) When you download this .tgz file in Safari, Safari warns you that it's an application, and you have to click to continue.
3.) When you run it, an admin password prompt is displayed by OS X, and you have to enter it to continue.
Like I said--FUD of the day.
Yeah, the other day I bought a Big Mac for 3 bucks and then found out that I could've made a bigger sandwhich myself for half of that...andyb wrote:Just had a shock comparing a £999 iMac with a much, much faster PC that costs £832.60 although you would have to build it yourself
I was deliberately NOT comparing Apples with.... Other products for the very real observation that the iMac is an all-in-one design that is popular (again) .... well at least compared to other all-in-one designs. To continue; I was comparing a machine of xxx cost with another of a similar cost but much greater performance, and also a machine of xxx performance to another of much reduced cost, on both of those comparisons the iMac looked bad.At the very least you have to compare Mac Prices to other vendors. They are still usually more expensive, although the prettier the PCs get, the more expensive they get too. Sony offers an iMac-like VAIO for 1999$, it you compare it to the 1999$ iMac you find that they have pretty much the same hardware, but the iMac has a 27" 2560x1440 display to the VAIO's 24" HD screen. Somebody at Sony must hope they have religious followers as well.
A simple but generally pointless counter argument would be along the lines of, HD/Compaq, Dell and Acer all sell low-cost PC's...... if they sold rubbish PC's they wouldnt sell so many....... I know you are itching to answer this but I will save you from bothering - some people buy a Ferrari and never break the speed limit.... what can I say about those people and many Apple buyers apart from the obvious answer that they blew a load of cash for a badge and the looks, others buy a dirt cheap car and thrash the hell out of it - who had the most fun, the poser or the speed-freak.? only the poser and the speed-freak can answer, and they will argue all day...... hence this is a moot point of topic so I suggest that we ignore it.Apple is not overpriced. If they were, they wouldn't sell so much. That's simple economics.
Plainly and simply any and all informend purchase descisions should be down to the software first and anything else is a minor point - including the extra cash, then decide if the sleek slimline design is really worth £300 or an extra 1/3rd of the cost.There's just too many people in the IT industry who use Macs to try and smear it as a cult. Anand La Shimpi of anandtech seems to be one. That guy is more knowledgable than most people here and he's probably not an infected fanboy. So it seems to be possible to make a (somewhat) objective and informed purchase decision and still end up with a Mac.
I thank you for being objective and honest.Mac's are neither superior nor inferior to Windows machines. Working with both, I find it more and more difficult to get involved in any conflict. They're both PCs. Most of the day I'm looking at Firefox, VLC or Flash/Photoshop windows, which look the same on either platform. OSX does a few things better than Windows, but not nearly as many with 7 than it did with XP. Windows 7 does a few things better than OSX.
I shall take your good word for that as you spend as much time in both environments.There is less software for OSX, but most of the time you'll find real good alternatives. That is one thing about the Mac-platform, that really amazes me. The polish of free-/shareware apps seems to be generally higher.
That is different from religion because..........Well, it's only an ad, but it shows how they try to appeal to people's self-delusions.
Maybe they are, mostly the toys - but their domain of intuative interfaces is being ruthlessly attacked on all sides.That being said, their products tend to be fabulous
That is my belief.but at one and a half times the cost of anyone else's similar hardware and functionality I would feel like an absolute fool to buy any.
That is the most amazing thing, somehow they still manage to do so - at least a bit. Its like all of those people in the 1980's that always wanted a BMW, now they are not so interested because they are as common as muck - those who still want one likely still cant afford one.That being said, Apple's products have become so popular lately that they can't appeal to elitism anymore.
One of the points being made is that even if Apple makes very good products ("fabulous" is an overstatement), the reason they cost so much is that a large percentage of the buyers are Apple cult members and that drives up the price to higher than what other companies are able to charge for comparable products. Apple owners tend to be either cultists or those who are more rational, but willing to pay the much higher prices for only slightly better products. Even among those who are not hard core Apple cult members, an Apple product is a prestige item, beyond what the value actually is compared to the competition. So market acceptance of Apple products is not an indication of their actual value, unless one is selling status, etc (which they obviously are).tim851 wrote:Apple is not overpriced. If they were, they wouldn't sell so much. That's simple economics.
Do you see any value in Micro-ATX or Mini-ITX then? What about Shuttle Cubes. In your world, they all wouldn't exist, would they?andyb wrote:a small tower PC can be hidden, are you suggesting that it is really worth £300 NOT to bother hiding it.?
HP/Compaq, Dell and Acer COMBINED haven't had the net profit what Apple did last year.A simple but generally pointless counter argument would be along the lines of, HD/Compaq, Dell and Acer all sell low-cost PC's...... if they sold rubbish PC's they wouldnt sell so many
Yes. And this is a free market economy. People can pay extra for anything they like. Good thing too, otherwise we'd all drive the same car, wear the same thing and eat the same food.Plainly and simply any and all informend purchase descisions should be down to the software first and anything else is a minor point - including the extra cash, then decide if the sleek slimline design is really worth £300 or an extra 1/3rd of the cost.
As I stated before, I don't have a preference of OSX over Windows or the other way around. I wouldn't mind the Macbook Air running Windows 7. Had I been looking for a 15 or 17 inch laptop I would most likely not have gotten a Macbook. It's just that the ultra-portable market is not very competitive below 1000$.As a question out of pure interest, how much if anything extra would would you have paid for that 11" Apple laptop running Mac OS over an identical laptop running W7 64-bit.? I only ask because you often use both Windows and OS, but as I understand the actual quality of the product is important to you as well, but given that everything was identical but the OS what would be your value difference.?